New Record....

[k2muskie]

Found out Friday from friends...a new Idaho State Record Perch was caught 2.96# on Friday...congrats to the angler and I'm a betting woman and I'm betting there's a 3#'r or two in that fishery...

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[DKStroutfitter]

Nice. I wish that we could get bigger perch in Utah.
I know that the conditions that we have makes it very hard for perch to grow to a large size but I can wish.
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[k2muskie]

[quote DKStroutfitter]Nice.I know that the conditions that we have makes it very hard for perch to grow to a large size but I can wish.[/quote]

Ahhh yes Dale but it doesn't have to be that way.

Agreed it sucks the pan fish angler (for us in the spring and hard deck) can't get into some decent sized finned critters...unfortunately Utah is a trout state...mind you nothing wrong with that. However, when it comes to variety besides the state SNIT, well Utah is just way behind the curve IMO.

Biggest thing is for the state to work with others and control water release basically water elevation in reservoirs...that's what has happened in Idaho on this body of water...to include no limit (really a 20 Crappie limit on PV)...no limit Idaho sees as a plus. Including they have gone on record in articles saying they are surprised and encourage the harvest. Also predicting a decline with no dent being made in the next few years and they are encouraged.

I firmly believe Utah is trying and just needs more encouraging from other states and become students to too what they are doing including angler interests for a good panfish...and not all of us target trout or wish to literally hike to a 20 acre pond to catch one..Utah needs to be serious about pan fish as it isn't just pretty colored fish on some mountain stream or hatchery ponds full of SNITS to be stocked or air dropped in that the angler wants.. For my 02 cents...
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[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]Definitely a porky perch.

Would you believe there have been perch that big caught in Utah? Early 80's in Yuba. One angler caught two in one day that were both over 18" and 3#. But did not care about records. Weighed them on a market scale in Levan...on the way home...then filleted and ate them.

Almost any of our lakes is capable of producing the large perch...for a short time. But with all of our reservoirs being subject to great fluctuations in water levels it messes up both the spawning and food availability. Peaks and valleys...with more valley than peak.

There is hope for a couple of our lakes...in the next two or three years...if we can maintain decent water levels. But whatever happens will be more by accident than design. As you point out, our state is managed more for trout than other species...and perch are last on the list of species that gets any creative boosts from "management".

You made some pretty strong statements. But you are among friends. How do you REALLY feel? LOL
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[PACKFAN]

I saw Tackle Tom had posted that Friday on his Facebook, too bad he didn't take any measurements. I was happy to see that it was a local angler that had broken the current record. Had fun at Strawberry with the group this past Sat. wish you could have joined us, ice was in great condition and a beautiful day until the wind starting kicking up around noon. I ended up with a nice sunburn, my sunscreen was right in one of my pockets on my rod case but I didn't use it (dummy me) I had even let one of the guys that was there with his little son use some and didn't put any on. [:/]
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[k2muskie]

[quote TubeDude][#0000ff]You made some pretty strong statements. But you are among friends. How do you REALLY feel? LOL
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Haha...pretty much the same...tell it like it is for the most part..no hidden agenda with me....[] []

[quote PACKFAN] Had fun at Strawberry with the group this past Sat. wish you could have joined us, ice was in great condition and a beautiful day until the wind starting kicking up around noon.[/quote]

No desire to fish for Trout...I'm sure the Trout crowd is happy with that as we'd be giving them fits if we did chase Trout I'm sure...I have to say some pretty colors but not on our bucket list to fish for...well yet anyways[cool]
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[PBH]

[quote TubeDude][#0000ff] As you point out, our state is managed more for trout than other species...and perch are last on the list of species that gets any creative boosts from "management".
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After everything that has been done at both Yuba and Fish Lake, and you make a comment that "perch are last on the list of species that gets any creative boosts from management"???

Wow. That's pretty ignorant if you ask me. Seems to me like there has been a ton of effort put in at both places to attempt to manage those perch.



so, what do any of you guys suggest Utah does to grow bigger perch? Let's list out the options, and then discuss how, or if, those options would help and whether or not those options are even viable.

Keep in mind, in order to grow large fish you have to control the population size.

Ready. Go!
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[SBennett]

Excellent exercise, I want to learn.

Habitat improvement for certain types of minnows in order to maintain forage base?
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[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]ANN...another nice notion.

If it weren't for the perch becoming a problem in Fish Lake (a trout pond) there would be no effort to reduce their numbers by netting them and putting them into Yuba. And as far as helping Yuba all the new perch are doing is feeding the pike. With the current low water situation there is little likelihood that any surviving perch will be able to spawn...or that any of their eggs will survive the carp.

Talk about ignorant. There are plenty of other places they could plant surplus perch to help them reestablish formerly good numbers. Deer Creek comes to mind. The lake will produce good perch if they can survive the smallmouth predation problem on their fry. Planting some larger perch would help a lot.
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[k2muskie]

Bingo TD and that is exactly what Idaho did...maybe someone tossing the ignorant comments around needs to read up on Lake Cascade. Water Elevation is managed, Predation was managed/eliminated, introduced adult size Perch that was managed...no harvest limit etc, etc, etc...
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[PBH]

[quote k2muskie] Water Elevation is managed, Predation was managed/eliminated, introduced adult size Perch that was managed...no harvest limit etc, etc, etc...[/quote]


OK. Now we're getting somewhere, other than just complaining. Let's discuss:

1. Water elevation management. How does the State of Utah control water levels of reservoirs? Right now, they have no control over this. How can this be resolved?

2. Predation management: Yuba currently has very liberal limits on pike -- to the dismay of many anglers. At other places (Jordanelle comes to mind) the DWR has made numerous attempts to liberalized limits on small mouth bass, but the angling public has fought to not allow these liberal limits.

3. Stocking -- in order to stock large fish you have to raise them first. That's always a problem, and a costly one too. As was already mentioned in the case of Yuba, stocking bigger perch isn't a solution, but rather a band-aid that will help nothing in long run.

4. Harvest limits. We already have some very liberal harvest limits on perch. Further, the Sate of Utah has liberalized the use of perch as bait for many waters. In fact, perch from Fish Lake can also be thrown away! are there other lakes where harvest limits could be liberalized and where anglers would actually harvest more fish? Sometimes we liberalized harvest limits but anglers refuse to harvest more fish.

5. Habitat. Look at what is being done at Fish Lake with weevils and millfoil. Dude can complain about the reasons why it's being done all he wants -- but something that cannot be denied is that with all the changes at Fish Lake PERCH SIZE WILL INCREASE! Habitat improvement, liberalized limits, encouragement to harvest all you can catch, tournaments promoting perch....it seems to me like Utah is "managing" the perch at Fish Lake, which is good for ALL SPECIES in the lake!


WARNING: Elephant in the room. Proceed with caution.

6. Population control -- we've mentioned predator control, but what about the perch themselves? How do you control the perch population? That's the BIG question. It's the question that has constantly been asked over, and over, and over in Utah. We've seen time, after time, after time, where perch populations explode being their capacity which results in crashes. The best answer is item #1 on this page: water levels. If you could control water levels, you could maybe control perch populations. Keep water high during the spawn, then drop the levels below those spawning areas after the spawn to leave the eggs high and dry. But how do you accomplish this? At a natural lake (Fish Lake) you can't do this. At reservoirs (Yuba, Deer Creek, Jordanelle), the water is controlled by an irrigation company, not the DWR. So, how do you manipulate the water levels to reduce perch spawning ability to a healthy population level? Figure this one out, and you might have something to run with!




Wasn't Lake Cascade drained a number of years ago? In an effort to remove all the fish? And the result of that was FAST growth, and a new record fish. Hmmmm.....sounds like something we've been preaching for years!! Reduce population numbers and get fish back in the zone of fast growth, and you'll get big fish. Figure out that puzzle. No more complaints, just solutions.
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[johnnycake]

I know some states do christmas tree roundups and place them in lakes to create structure and habitat. Is there something like that we could organize to assist the panfish? If the low water level keeps structure unavailable in Yuba, wouldn't creating pockets of submerged trees and rockpiles in the deeper water solve it?
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[PBH]

[quote johnnycake]I know some states do christmas tree roundups and place them in lakes to create structure and habitat. Is there something like that we could organize to assist the panfish? If the low water level keeps structure unavailable in Yuba, wouldn't creating pockets of submerged trees and rockpiles in the deeper water solve it?[/quote]

Habitat improvement. Nice. This is good.

Again, the State doesn't own those impoundments (ie: Yuba). You have to work with the water owners in order to dump debris in their reservoirs. Guess what: they don't want that stuff in their reservoirs!


Even if \ when you get those types of projects approved, christmas trees are a temporary fix. They decay, breakdown, crumble, dissolve, and disappear. They are not a long-term solution.

Rocks, on the other hand, are a good solution, but, again, you must work with the water owners in order to do build artificial habitat structures, and many times the water owners won't allow it.

(FWIW, we're just going through the same old stuff again. It all comes down to those same old 4 fishery management tools: (1) Rules and regulations; (2) public relations and education; (3) fish stocking and removal; (4) habitat improvement and manipulation.)
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[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]Great idea...in theory. Yuba is a lake with featureless bottom...very little structure. At one time some rocks were dumped around one of the coves near walleye point. Only problem is that those rocks have been out of water more years than they have been submerged. No help to the fishies.

Yuba rises and falls too much...too often...for most "artificial" structure to be of continuous value for spawning and habitat. And there are greater demands on the stored water every year...by the downstream water users.

That brings up another point. The state does not own Yuba. The biggest owner of the water is the power plant in Delta. And they will not even negotiate a minimum pool arrangement with DWR. They can drain it dry every year if they want to.

The final point, about adding structure, is that anything of that nature would also have to be approved by the water users. I understand that various groups have tried to get such approval and have not been successful.

Bottom line? Yuba is strictly a storage pond for those who own the water. It holds fish when there is enough water and has provided some "moments" for anglers in the past. But with more and longer droughts and greater demands on the stored water it does not bode well for Yuba as a fishery in the future.

Breaks my poor old heart. Lots of fond memories of Yuba in bygone days.
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[k2muskie]

Here ya go some reading material and no Lake Cascade wasn't drained they wanted to drain it but didn't due to a variety of environmental impact studies that were done during the restoration effort of the Lake back in the very early 2000s. Bottom line its water elevation and predation control Pike Minnow and Sucker elimination/reduction per all the research we've done. Finally they stocked it with healthy large Perch I believe they got from Oregon to get it the shot in the arm... Also there are Coho, Rainbow, Kokes, Tiger Muskie, Crappie, Bass, and catfish in Cascade...it isn't just full of Perch...

Also for structure there is no real structure in cascade only the basic lake contours based on the old river bottom that being the Payette. There are steep drop-offs and open basin areas...some submerged culverts, gravel/road beds and bridges including rail road tracks.

How long Cascade remains the way it is anyone's guess even the Idaho fish and game biologist are surprised. There is other food sources in Cascade that we found the Perch eating on and it wasn't Perch minnows either...

[url "http://www.usbr.gov/newsroom/newsrelease/detail.cfm?RecordID=9469"]http://www.usbr.gov/newsroom/newsrelease/detail.cfm?RecordID=9469[/url]

[url "https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2003/07/15/03-17815/operational-changes-in-support-of-lake-cascade-fishery-restoration-boise-project-payette-division"]https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2003/07/15/03-17815/operational-changes-in-support-of-lake-cascade-fishery-restoration-boise-project-payette-division[/url]

[url "https://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7969"]https://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7969[/url]
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[Kent]

[quote johnnycake]

I know some states do christmas tree roundups and place them in lakes to create structure and habitat. Is there something like that we could organize to assist the panfish?

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If my memory hasn't failed me, that was tried at Yuba many years ago. When the water level dropped the previously-submerged trees were used to create bonfires. So much for trees for habitat improvement.
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[johnnycake]

Thanks, that is good info. I'm pretty familiar with the legal and ownership issues at stake with obtaining approval/permission (as a law student focused on natural resources I've taken lots of courses on property law, water law, etc. I think it is fascinating stuff). I was more curious about possible public involvement that we could try to start something to help.
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[SBennett]

Pat,
I've got an idea, pull some old cars out on the ice and wait till ice off.
It's guaranteed to work, you get it approved and I will supply the first car!!!
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[SkunkedAgain]

You are absolutely correct they are great habitat, but a nasty eye sore... Cutler used to be great bass and crappie fishing along the old cars, probably the start of my fishing addiction as a kid after school fishing every night.. Used to be a 1950 something car with a rectangular moon roof that was submerged and in the spring I could catch a crappie every cast into that old moon roof... Worked great until a bass would grab it and break me off before I could pull it out of the hole in the roof.. Back then jigs were a luxury and it would take me weeks to replace a lost one... Good times, the fishing has sure went down hill since those cars were removed, but it sure looks a lot better than it used to.. Guess life is just a series of trade offs... And what is good for one, is not so good for the others... I've found pointing fingers usually comes back to haunt me so I won't offer any recommendations, just try to be grateful for when things are good... Later J
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[PBH]

K2 -- did you read that document?




Lake Cascade:
"...
Low oxygen levels and elevated temperatures
are believed to be the contributing factors to
fish kills that have periodically occurred in the
reservoir. These fish kills have included rainbow
trout, coho salmon, and yellow perch. As previously
discussed, the most recent substantial fish kill
occurred in 1994, when a large number of juvenile
yellow perch died. Since then, no strong recruitment
of yellow perch has been documented..."


The document says numerous times that the reservoir has water quality issues, including oxygen depletion problems in both summer and winter, which cause the fish of this reservoir issues.


So, just glancing at this document, it looks like you have yourself a reservoir that has constraints on yellow perch recruitment, limiting their population size and thus providing opportunity for stocked adult yellow perch to avoid predation and thus grow large fast! Combine this with a new minimum conservation pool acquired by the State and you have yourself a nice equation to grow some big fish really fast!
To top it off, IDFG is managing the reservoir "for wild trout ... using quality trout regulations".

isn't this exactly what Utah wants to do in numerous fisheries? Reduce population size by restricting natural reproduction and get fish past the size of predation so that they can grow fast??



And you guys are complaining about Utah's management!!

Ugh. It's so utterly pointless with you guys....
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