U.L. White Bass Problem

[utfishguy31]

I was talking to a guy who fishes Utah lake a ton especialy thru the ice.He has been down there all most every night since the lake froze over fishing for white bass.I was telling me that a certian minority or people were down there taking sleds full of white bass home and then selling them to the local asian resturants in the valley.Why doesnt the DWR put a stop to this crap.Those fish are not for market sale and the "no limit" should be changed.Maybe Tubedude can brief us on this problem and if the DWR are aware of this happening???It really ticks me off when certian people take advantage of things like this and have no ethics, then ruin it for the rest of us.
[signature]

[2fishon]

That has been going on for years. They can't possibly impact the numbers of white bass. I don't think they should sell them, but that is probably just an accusation with no merit. I would imagine that they eat most of them. I've personally witnessed people keeping hundreds and hundreds of white bass. If you see something illegal, get a license plate number and call the poaching hotline.
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Sadly, it has been going on for years. And, it DOES impact the Utah Lake fishery. They helped drop the spawning population way down in the fall, two years ago, when the big fish were congregated by the springs. The took out truckfuls to sell. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Then when the lake came back up, after the drought...and two years of poor spawning... there were not many prime spawning fish left. The first year there were so few small white bass that the walleye were starving. Almost all the ones you caught were skinny. Many of them died that winter.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Thankfully there was a good spawn the last two years and the white bass are coming back.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]NOBODY NEEDS THAT MANY WHITE BASS. There has never been a limit on them but maybe it is time to make one. I am going to propose a 20 fish limit at the RAC meeting in May. That will keep plenty of them in the lake for both the increasing number of REAL anglers, who like to catch them for sport, and for the big walleyes and catfish that rely on them as a major food source.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]In the meantime, since there is no limit on white bass, those who harvest large quantities are not breaking any laws by keeping a lot of them. But, as many of us know, they ARE breaking laws by selling them.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]The only potential problem in getting DWR to put a limit on white bass is that they eat June Sucker fry. As long as DWR keeps wasting time, money and effort on trying to reestablish a population of June suckers, they are not likely to try to manage any predators that eat their darling suckerettes.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Maybe we need more anglers to show up at the RAC meetings and let them know we want Utah Lake managed for fishing, not as either a fruitless sucker nursery or as a fish market for select groups.[/#0000ff]
[signature]

[utfishguy31]

[reply]

[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]NOBODY NEEDS THAT MANY WHITE BASS. [/#0000ff]
[/reply]
My point exactly!!
[signature]

[BignFish]

I have never ice fished utah lake, but i have been thinking about it lately just to catch something different for a change. I was curious on what works best for the white bass or other species in the lake, and what is the best way to fish for them and the best place to go? any help would be awsome.. I really do think that is totally dishonest to be selling all those fish caught. I am one that will get nice pictures and put everything back just occasionally keeping a few to eat myself..
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]White bass are a great target for ice fishing. If you can find them you can usually catch them.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]They are not finicky. They will hit almost any kind of lures, of any color. Some guys have their preferences, but over time, there is probably nothing that won't catch them at one time or another.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]High percentage lures are plain old Kastmasters. Silver usually works best, in smaller sizes...1/8 oz. and 1/4 oz. Just add a bit of crawler or fish meat and jig it right off the bottom. You will usually do better by holding the rod and twitching it regularly than by setting it in a holder. But, if you have a two pole permit, you can sometimes get a finicky biter to munch on a "deadsticked" jig...or even a crawler or minnow. That will also pick up walleyes and catfish through the ice.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]1 1/2" tubes and twisters work well too. White, chartreuse, hot pink, black and chartreuse and other colors all work. Again, tip them with crawler, fish meat, waxies or mealworms.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]"Blade baits", like spoons and Sonar lures also work well at times. Don't pump and jig them too much. Just lift and drop them or give them a little wiggle action.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Utah Lake seldom caps completely, with ice thick enough to fish far offshore. The best ice fishing is usually in one of the harbors around the lake...Lindon, American Fork, Provo, Saratoga or Lincoln Beach. There can also be good fishing in the outlet channel of the Jordan River, in front of the pump house. That is in Lehi.[/#0000ff]
[signature]

[beeman01]

a couple of years ago i went to the lake, there was a whole line up of people fishing, i elbowed my way in between them and started to fish, caught one on first cast, looked around and saw a bucket sitting there, threw the bass in the bucket, after about the 10 th fish they started to talk to me,i asked them what they did with all the fish, this is what they told me, we take them home , clean them and then pass them out to the _old people_ then the nursing homes _ THEN SOME FOR THEM SELVES , right then i changed my mind about the people fishing, however when an illeagle eye or LMB is taken home , i dont go for that as for the white bass i say go for it, IF THEY WERE TELLING THE TRUTH i have no trouble with that. it looks like to me that the water level has more impact on the white bass then the fishing, look at the size of the fish this year, they will only grow to the food level,less fish, more food, bigger fish, of course i dont know any thing as i am just an old dumb guy that likes to fish and have observed a lot of things in my 71 years of fishing , i should say 66 years as i didnt start until i was 5, so take it for what it is worth, dont complain just fish and good luck
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]I only wished that the large quantities of white bass (and overlimits of walleyes) that leave Utah Lake all end up serving the aged and poor people. Some of them might have such a nice ending. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]However, there is hard evidence that there are several hardcore market fishing groups operating around Utah Lake, year round. This has been going on for several decades. The only difference these days is that lookouts are posted and they have binoculars and cell phones to warn the harvesters that DWR officers are on the way, in case someone has too many oversized walleyes. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I have personally witnessed aggressive snagging practices, with ALL fish being put on a long stringer. Then, when they get a call from the lookout, two of the group grabs the stringer and disappears into the brush. Sometimes they take the fish to a hidden vehicle. Other times they just wait until it is safe and come out to resume "fishing".[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Unfortunately DWR officers all cover large areas and cannot always respond to citizen calls for poaching or game violations. And, by the time they get down to some of the areas around Utah Lake, the happy harvesters are long gone.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Another factor is the DWR does not aggressively manage the sport fishing on Utah Lake. They really do not care if the predators (walleye, white bass or catfish) are suffering from poor food or overfishing. Their only concern for Utah Lake is the June sucker. All the other fish are "THE ENEMY", so they don't sacrifice management of trout waters to closely regulate Utah Lake.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]It is important that we not characterize the poachers or violators as being confined to any single group. There are violators of all origins and backgrounds on Utah Lake. Because Asian anglers are generally a cohesive group, and many are very good anglers...and successful...it is common to accuse them of overharvesting. As a group, they are probably more inclined to keep all of their fish, because they rely on them for a large part of their diets. But, that does not mean they are all violators.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]As we have advised many times on BFT, be on the alert for any potential violations and report them by cell phone. If you do not have a cell phone, take pictures or write down license numbers. This is especially important if you see someone taking home large numbers of any species...protected or not. DWR knows that there is market fishing going on, but because of the skillful evasion tactics of those who sell fish, it is hard to prove anything. They need our help.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]And...by the way...you were ALSO a violator when you gave away those fish. The proclamation reads that you cannot give away your catch on the waters where you caught them. To comply with the law you can only transfer possession of game fish at a residence or a food locker. You must also properly write out the details of the transfer...Name, date, species, quantity, etc.[/#0000ff]
[signature]

[wormandbobber]

[reply][cool][#0000ff]The only potential problem in getting DWR to put a limit on white bass is that they eat June Sucker fry. As long as DWR keeps wasting time, money and effort on trying to reestablish a population of June suckers, they are not likely to try to manage any predators that eat their darling suckerettes.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Maybe we need more anglers to show up at the RAC meetings and let them know we want Utah Lake managed for fishing, not as either a fruitless sucker nursery or as a fish market for select groups.[/#0000ff][/reply]


I think that you will have an exceptionally difficult time getting this accomplished regardless of how many people show up to the RAC..."The June sucker, named for its annual June spawning run, is endemic to Utah Lake. This means there are no other places in Utah or the world where June sucker live naturally. The June sucker numbers have gone from millions in the early 1800s, to a natural population of less than 1,000 today.

The June sucker was federally listed as an endangered species with critical habitat in April 1986. Factors contributing to its endangered status include impacts to its natural habitat, water development, and predation or competition with nonnative fish. The June sucker was listed as endangered due to its localized distribution, failure to recruit new adult fish to the population, and because of threats to its continued survival. In an effort to ensure against the threat of extinction the June Sucker Recovery Implementation Program was established.

The June Sucker Recovery Implementation Program has grouped recovery tasks identified in the June Sucker Recovery Implementation Program Plan (US Fish and Wildlife 1999) into six recovery elements. These recovery elements were established to organize recovery actions by threats that they are intended to address. The elements also ensure a diversified and balanced approach to the implementation of recovery actions so that funding and effort can be applied at the appropriate level for each recovery element. The recovery elements are:

Nonnative Sportfish Management
Habitat Development & Maintenance
Water Management & Protection To Benefit June Sucker
Genetic Integrity & Augmentation
Research, Monitoring & Data Management
Information & Education


Each recovery element is being implemented by the June Sucker Recovery Implementation Program and evaluated on an ongoing basis to assess its contribution toward recovery and to ensure an equitable contribution from all recovery activities. "

Because the June sucker is a federally listed species, it's recovery is regulated by the feds not the DWR...
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Don't misunderstand. I make noise about being frustrated by the (fruitless) efforts being made to preserve those fish, but I am also an environmentalist at heart. I have lived long enough to see the complete destruction of too many species, worldwide. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I do not really advocate abandoning the June sucker program. However, like some of the other restoration programs we are living with, I am sometimes frustrated by how much goes into a "lost cause" at the expense of all other interests. In the greater scheme of things, the world will not implode if the last June sucker dies and is eaten by catfish. It would be a shame, yes, but not a catastrophe...unless you bleed green.[/#0000ff]

[#0000ff]I also know that any federal program automatically escalates a local situation to "untouchable". I'm not foolish enough to believe that a few frustrated Utah anglers could make any impact on the feds. Other well developed and well funded lobbying groups around the country have tried fruitlessly to preserve the homes, land and livelihoods of people who have to make a living on lands that have been taken over by "save the endangered (whatever)" programs.[/#0000ff]

[#0000ff]People poke fun at PETA rallies. They are nothing when compared to zealous environmentalists and fed programs. Yeah, I have been knowed to hug a few trees, but not ones that are already dead.[/#0000ff]
[signature]

[Coldfooter]

[reply]
[#0000ff](fruitless) [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]"lost cause" [/#0000ff] [/reply]
[signature]

[wormandbobber]

[reply][cool][#0000ff(fruitless)...However, like some of the other restoration programs we are living with, I am sometimes frustrated by how much goes into a "lost cause" at the expense of all other interests. .[/#0000ff][/reply]

I think you are missing the big point here..."By reducing and controlling the numbers of nonnative fish, the lake's ecosystem will become more balanced to support a more diverse aquatic community that will benefit the remaining native fish species [and many of the nonnative species]. By actively managing the fish community, problems brought on by over fishing certain species, ecosystem imbalances and disproportionate fish biomass ratios can be avoided.

In Utah Lake, the reduction and control of common carp represents a significant challenge. Common carp have a competitive advantage over native fish, including the endangered June sucker. In the most recent lake-wide survey conducted, common carp represented an overwhelming 91 percent biomass in the lake. Common carp in Utah Lake are a destructive force within the energy network of the lake's ecosystem and cause conditions that promote their survival over other species."

In other words, efforts to restore the june sucker in Utah Lake should be beneficial to all other game species by improving the habitat and creating a better biomass structure. Without the restoration efforts on the June sucker, all of your game species...including the white bass could ultimately suffer. Restoration efforts are a win-win situation...you should be very supportive of this program because it should ultimately benefit you!
[signature]

[cat_man]

Unless they decide that the new latest threat to June Suckers is predation by walleye and white bass, and decide to remove limits for all predator fish in Utah Lake to allow June Sucker fry to survive.

Of course, that would probably only happen after the carp problem is taken care of (not likely any time soon). But, if they decide to try and eradicate as many walleye, white bass, and catfish as possible, so that there are less predators to eat the June Sucker fry, that would negatively affect the sport fishery.

For now, though, I agree, the June Sucker Recovery Program can and probably will benefit the sport fish species by removing carp.
[signature]

[wormandbobber]

The big key is that carp make up more than 90% of the total biomass in the lake...if that were reduced to even 50%, more room would be available for white bass, walleye, largemouth, and june suckers.
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Until/unless carp are eradicated, it is pointless to keep trying to restore the June suckers. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Guess what...short of poisoning the lake and all the tributaries, that ain't gonna happen. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]It really is funny to read all the wild and wacky proposals for getting rid of carp. Bounties, paid carp killers, diking off the lake. Whew.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]No arguments with you, sir. [/#0000ff]
[signature]

[wormandbobber]

[reply][cool][#0000ff]Until/unless carp are eradicated, it is pointless to keep trying to restore the June suckers
[/#0000ff][/reply]

Bologna. You obviously don't understand what restoration entails...it also includes habitat improvements which benefit all species. "Habitat within the Utah Lake ecosystem has been significantly altered since early settlers first arrived in the valley. Human induced habitat changes that have affected the June sucker include channelization and diking of tributaries, diversion structures that limit access to potential spawning and nursery areas, filling of tributary floodplain habitats and wetlands, and reduced habitat for early life stages of June sucker." Correcting these problems will benefit a large number of species.

By restoring and preserving habitat so that June sucker can survive and flourish, the lake's ecosystem will function more efficiently. With these types of improvements the ecosystem will be capable of supporting a more diverse aquatic community, like it did when settlers first arrived."

Eradicating the carp is only part of the equation...and things can be done to make dents in the carp population. Total elimination of carp from such a large lake system is not feasible at this time. However, studies have shown that benefits to shallow lake systems can often be achieved with a 75 percent reduction in bottom-feeding fish populations as long as the reduced numbers can be maintained.

The big thing is this: utah lake is one big bucket that can only hold so many pounds of fish...if the restoration of june suckers is successfull, that bucket will hold more pounds of game fish than what it currently does. This program is not a waste. It absolutely amazes me that you are not in full support of the june sucker recovery program...it will only benefit Utah Lake.
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Salami...and pimento loaf too.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I would love to see a Utah Lake that could support the June suckers again. But, I also believe in reality. I don't know how much in time and resources has been "invested" so far, but the results are less than zilch. How much more needs to be blown before somebody decides that the ugly fish would do better in another water? They have already been stocked in a few other ponds without predators. Saw it on TV and I believe everything I see on TV.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I have also seen/heard that there is virtually zero recruitment either from natural spawning or from "assisted" spawning in Utah Lake and tributaries. Sad...but reality.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]A major lake reclamation is needed to make a happy home for the suckers. That takes politics and money...from where? DWR can't get enough money from legislature to pay their people enough to keep them from jumping ship and going elsewhere. Are they going to spend it on 1000 ugly suckers?[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Are we having fun yet?[/#0000ff]
[signature]

[Mc_Lennon]

From what I've seen of Utah Lake with the carp, they're not going anywhere. I'm not afraid to say my first fish at the tender age of 9 months old was a big old ugly carp by Saratoga. And look at what it's done to me since then.[]

The only thing, in my oppinion, that would help reduce the carp population would be increasing the white bass and other major predator populations. Kind of a catch 22 in terms of the June Suckers. When you have a white bass population large enough to decimate the numbers of carp that are surviving from fry to adulthood, the carp numbers go down. But, that would mean more fish eating the suckers.

There's no easy solution to this mess. The key is the carp, though. And I personally believe the key to the carp are the white bass. I could be wrong(I am a lot more than I'm right), but that's what I think.
[signature]

[wormandbobber]

Tubedude, you are looking at this issue from a very schewed vantage point...try looking at the bigger picture...
"Urban growth, land use practices, and municipal and industrial discharge have impaired water quality and severely damaged the June sucker's only indigenous habitat. The recovery of the June sucker and the revitalization of Utah Lake go hand-in-hand.

A healthy habitat for the fish benefits the entire ecosystem of the lake and the people who live around it. Habitat improvement and nonnative fish control is important so that the lake and its rivers can once again support a balanced fish community. Water supplies also need to be managed to meet the needs of the fish and other species without interrupting water service to human residents.

By working to balance the needs of the ecosystem with those of the human population, the people along the Wasatch Front will discover the value of being both residents, as well as guardians of their communities.

A healthy ecosystem contributes to the greater good of all creatures that depend on it, including humans."

The recovery program will improve "the health of the lake and the species that depend on it. Recovering the June sucker will enhance stream flows, improve water quality, restore river and lake habitats, and reduce the impact of nonnative fish."
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Son, all you gotta do is look at the picture in your avatar for the solution. First, reverse the flow of the Jordan River and pump enough salt water into Utah Lake to support ling cod and then stock those toothy mothers. They eat anything that don't eat them first. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]In no time at all...NO CARP. Probably no white bass, suckers or anything else either.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Hey, that ain't any more radical than some of the other stuff being proposed. Right?[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I'm witchoo. Carp are fun. Ugly, but fun.[/#0000ff]
[signature]