Kamloops Rainbow

[PBH]

So, now think about this. We've mentioned why Kamloops won't work at Strawberry: because rainbows get fished out or eaten before they could ever grow to their potential.

So, what do you do about it? What's the bottleneck?


REGULATIONS!

Use the same regulation in place that are producing big cutthroat to grow big rainbow trout as well!

Place a slot limit similar to the current reg on cutts to protect the rainbow trout, and guess what? Big rainbow trout!
[signature]

[Br0wntrout]

I think regs have a ton to do with the size of the cutthroat as well. Cutthroat are more designed to eat meat, just look at their teeth, and I think this helps their growth to a small extent. I whole heartedly agree with you that the same regs should be put in place for Rainbows. Trout aren't the best tasting fish anyways.
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]About changing the slot to include rainbows...have you bounced that off your "connections"? I have broached the subject a few times with the guys that run the Strawberry program and the gist of their attitude is this:[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]1. Planting the sterile rainbows at least creates the potential for larger rainbows faster, because they keep eating and don't take time out for "romance".[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]2. The plan is to leave the rainbows as a fully harvestable species, without slot limits, to satisfy the remnant group of anglers who still insist on taking home fish as a measure of how successful the trip was. This is supported by many of the posts on BFT. Anglers almost consider a 50 fish day...of slot cutts...as a given. But, they get all excited if they catch one or two KEEPER rainbows...regardless of size.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Bottom line, it is highly unlikely that Strawberry will soon see rainbows included in the slot limits. Those who would like to catch more LARGE bows do not like this, but unfortunately the majority angling population still has to harvest a trout or two.[/#0000ff]
[signature]

[Br0wntrout]

Exactly! So lets plant Kamloops so they fight better when we bring in 14" planters! []
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Ahhhhh...but "fight" is a subjective thing. Not something you can quantify and expect universally. Variables in fish health, water temp, nutrition, etc.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]But, I will agree with you that all other things being equal, those Kammies do put up a tussle. I'm from Idaho and I caught BIG ones from Lake Pend O'Reille when I was just a kid. Had one actually break the wooden handle on one of those old trolling rods when it hit hard on the strike.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Have also taken them on their home turf in BC and other lakes into which they have been established. Great fish. But...again...I have to side with PBH on the size issue. I have seen them "max out" at 18 inches in beautiful lakes that you would think were ideal to grow big fish. Why? Who knows. But there was some limiting factor.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Also saw some of the bigguns from days of old in the Gorge, including the 26 pound beautiful male caught by Dale Canty on a fly rod from his float tube. Saw some other ones swimming that scared me. Caught some smaller ones and had a great time. In those days they were fat on the abundant chubs in the Gorge, competing with the huge browns and macks. When the chubs were gone, all of them switched to kokes. Too many predators for a stocked and managed prey species. Bad fishy.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Never had a chance to rassle with one from Mantua, but I know a few dedicated fly flingers whose eyes glaze over when they tell of epic battles with the kamloops that lived there for a time. Planted fish survived okay, but could not spawn and did not live long in the warm summer waters.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]There are lots of lakes that we would like to have "turbo bows" in, but as my mama used to tell me "Wishing does not make it so." It is okay to dream, but sometimes we just have to live with reality.[/#0000ff]
[signature]

[lavaman]

"[size 1]Use the same regulation in place that are producing big cutthroat to grow big rainbow trout as well!

Place a slot limit similar to the current reg on cutts to protect the rainbow trout, and guess what? Big rainbow trout! "[/size]
[size 1][/size] [size 1]

I totally agree with this statement, but I also see TD's point about the reality of it all.

I think that as more and more fisherman pressure our lakes and streams, more regulations will have to be enforced. That's just the facts. I'm hoping Strawberry and the other great fishing waters will STAY great fishing waters. So that's why I'd love to see a slot limit with the 'Bows at the 'Berry.

[/size]
[signature]

[doggonefishin]

[size 1]A couple of points;[/size]
[size 1][/size]
[size 1]Re: "Lots of oxygen means BIG fish. I use to fish mantua just right before the kamloops were stocked and they had very large rainbows. It was because of all the plant life that produced so much oxygen and cover."[/size]

The presence of heavy vegetation in a body of water typically decreases the amount of oxygen in the water because oxygen is consumed as the vegetation decomposes upon death. The process is called eutrophication. This link explains further.
[url "http://toxics.usgs.gov/definitions/eutrophication.html"]http://toxics.usgs.gov/definitions/eutrophication.html[/url]


As for whether Gerrard strain kamloops will grow to huge size in Flaming Gorge, I entirely agree with TD and PBH. The circumstances that grew giant browns and Del Canty's rainbow in the 70's no longer exist there. No chubs anymore, a heavily predated koke population, and now smallies, burbot, and pup lakers vigorously munching any forage. If I am not mistaken, the DWR or Wyo DWR has already put Gerrards in there for the past couple of years. Are any enormous bows showing up?

Finally Re;
"[font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 1][font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 1]Kamloops are genetically better than regular hatchery rainbows. While they are the same species, they might just be in better shape for growing faster and healthier."[/size][/black][/font][/size][/black][/font]
[font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 1][font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 1][/size][/black][/font][/size][/black][/font]
"[font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 1][font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 1]The Kamloops come from a better line."[/size][/black][/font][/size][/black][/font]
[font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 1][font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 1][/size][/black][/font][/size][/black][/font]
The Gerrard strain comes from Lake Kootenay lake where there are three races of "Kamloops" trout. The biologists use a term "life history" Two of the races are not large and fill "typical" trout niches in the lake. However, the fish that spawn in the Lardeau river are typically slower to mature, more piscivorous, and larger. These are the fish that have been made famous in lake Pend Orielle and others. (However, it should be pointed out that Pend Orielle doesn't put out the same size fish that it did in the 40's because of a decline in the Koke population, and hybridization of the Gerrards with other bows.) Having this "life history" studied and preserved allowed for some great fishing. However, there are many other "life histories" or races in our native trout that may be useful to preserve for specific management needs. PBH mentioned what is done in Minersville. To say one strain is "better" is not something I would agree with. I feel efforts to preserve as many races as possible will insure healthy fisheries and more management options for our biologists in the future.


If one is interested in reading more on Gerrards and "Kamloops" trout, I would strongly recommend the following two books.

1. About Trout by Robert Behnke Pg. 91-96.
2. Trout and Salmon of North America by Behnke pg. 81-86.

Both of these books talk a good deal about "life histories" and why they are important to preserve.
[signature]

[PBH]

[reply]
[cool][#0000ff]About changing the slot to include rainbows...have you bounced that off your "connections"? [/#0000ff][#0000ff][/#0000ff][/reply]

Yes. I have. I've gotten no-where with it. Unfortunately, the State wants to "simplify" regulations. Then they go out and do something stupid and complicate things at Strawberry. The regulation at Strawberry is so bad that many CO's aren't writing tickets because they can't identify what is legal, and what is not.

What's even more confusing is that Panguitch Lake has regulations written that require the release of "all trout" in the slot. So, it the State wants to simplify regulations across the board, why the odd regulation at Strawberry?

FWIW -- angling pressure is lower now at Strawberry than prior to the special regulations. The whole reason is due to the regulations. Unfortunately, if rainbows were included in the slot regulations, angler pressure would be even less. This would be good for fishermen like myself that don't worry about how many fish we get to keep -- but bad for the majority. The DWR isn't going to change this regulation -- even if the rainbow trout could benefit enormously from it.



I'm glad to see that others also see the reality of Kamloops rainbows. Given the right conditions, any rainbow can get big. Let's work on habitat, regulations, etc. and quit worrying about strain...
[signature]

[Majja]

So does anyone thing if we had enough angler pressure we could ever get the regs ranged at the DWR? I know I personally I would rather be catching 22 inch fish all day long than 4 14-16" inch fish I could but will not take home.
[signature]

[PBH]

[reply]
So does anyone thing if we had enough angler pressure we could ever get the regs ranged at the DWR?
[/reply]

Contact Walt Donaldson at the DWR (Salt Lake office). Tell him your thoughts on the regulations at Strawberry. If enough people showed interest in changing the regs at Strawberry, it might be an option.
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Yeah, sure. Throw the lamb to the wolves. Nice goin', Bro.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]As we have discussed (and cussed) before, about the only REAL shot we will ever have to get those regs changed is to show up in NUMBERS at the RAC meetings...and to be organized and professional in our presentations. Still, it probably isn't something that could be accomplished on the first go-round. It's gonna take a lotta pressure from plenty of anglers before it will be likely to get on the review schedule.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Reminds me of the old saying about something being difficult to get done in any governmental environment. "It's like mating elephants. Everything happens at a high level, with a lot of noise and trumpeting. Then, it takes at least 18 months to get any results."[/#0000ff]
[signature]

[Fargo_Jim]

[font "Times New Roman"][size 3]Stop maligning Catch and Eat fishermen with BS expressions like, “to satisfy the remnant group of anglers who still insist on taking home fish as a measure of how successful the trip was”, and “…But, they get all excited if they catch one or two KEEPER rainbows...regardless of size.”[/size][/font]
[font "Times New Roman"][size 3] [/size][/font]
[font "Times New Roman"][size 3]Catching a fish and putting it on the table is the most honorable reason to go fishing. It’s a tradition that is tens of thousands of years old. The game of playing with the fish and stuffing them (often damaged) back in the water is a very new idea. [/size][/font]
[font "Times New Roman"][size 3] [/size][/font]
[font "Times New Roman"][size 3]I trust the State experts to set reasonable limits as part of an intelligent strategy that try to give everyone enjoyment, and not just the pampered fishing game players with their fish finders, depth finders, cameras, GPS equipment, ice shacks, power augers, and thousands of dollars worth of equipment. [/size][/font]
[font "Times New Roman"][size 3] [/size][/font]
[font "Times New Roman"][size 3]In North Dakota there are over 5 million ducks due to great habitat created and improved by hunters’ dollars. Not one of those hunters played the “harass the duck” game. No catch and release there. [/size][/font]
[font "Times New Roman"][size 3] [/size][/font]
[font "Times New Roman"][size 3]I never judge a trip by how many fish I catch. I leave that to the catch and release guys who brag in every message about their numbers…[/size][/font]
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Whoa, Bucko. Hold on there. Nobody keeps and eats more fish than I do. Not maligning anybody. But, I do NOT fish Strawberry and trout are not my primary target for the table. I do keep my share of trout, and they are always welcome on my menu. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I was referring back to the days when Strawberry was considered everybody's personal fish market, and whole families lined the banks to harvest coolers full of trout. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]The new regulations have been well received by the majority of Utah anglers...especially those who appreciate being able to catch lots of decent sized trout on every trip. But, there are still remnants of "the old school" who resent not being able to take home a bunch of fish to throw in the freezer.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]And, even with the C & R crowd today, catching an occasional rainbow to take home is the highlight of a trip. Since rainbows are in the minority and they may be kept, regardless of size, they are the prize in the box of Cracker Jack. That's what I was referring to.[/#0000ff]
[signature]

[RyanCreek]

That's right, Tube Dude loves his beer battered perch![laugh]

We're just talking about regulations that will help produce bigger fish, not knocking any fish eaters. Let's also not forget, that quite often to get bigger fish, anglers SHOULD be taking home their limits. In places like Strawberry where we have all the chubs, its becomes quite a balancing act however.
[signature]

[wormandbobber]

For a comprehensive summary of rainbow trout performance and strain performance read pages 85-87 of this document.
https://research.idfg.idaho.gov/Fish...ticle%2003.pdf
[signature]

[Fargo_Jim]

TubeDude,
Glad to find out I misunderstood your intentions. I've know a number of guys who never keep fish. I caught one throwing a gut hooked fish away because he was to damned lazy to clean it. That put a serious strain on the friendship. There's also a lot of posts about pucturing fish bladders and the best way to release deep-caught trout and perch. I understand the need for this if the fish are illegals. But if not, keep and eat the fish. It's too wasteful to let them swim ten yards away and die.
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]No harm, no foul. One of my favorite sayings is "ANYTHING NOT CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD IS MISUNDERSTOOD."[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I suppose if I were to read my original rant, without knowing what was behind it, I could interpret it as a tirade against "hook and cook" too. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]We have had plenty of "discussions" on this board about the reasons for C&R...and how to properly handle fish. The only thing we can all agree on (mostly) is that it is a matter of personal preference and individual belief.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]If you ever want to punish yourself badly enough, read back through my posts over the years. I am the guy that posts all of the "how to" stuff on filleting and cooking fish. I have always enjoyed fish, and like yourself, hate to see it wasted.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Now, we have hijacked this thread enough. [/#0000ff]
[signature]

[Majja]

I Harass plenty of ducks each year, but that is only cause I am not a great shot with a shot gun. heheh
[signature]

[Fargo_Jim]

[laugh]
[signature]

[fishguru73]

I can't agree with you more Lavaman when you state that even more strict regulations will be required as the fishing pressure increases with the onslaught of UT implants. The problem with more regulation is that Fish and Game Officers can't keep up with the law breaking, 20 lb. test line throwing, drunken idiots, and illegal aliens that have overrun our lakes and rivers. To stop the illegal harvest of trout at the Berry it would take two full time checkpoints either side of Srawberry and Soldier Creek on highway 40 doing border style searches and twenty officers patrolling the lake to ensure no one is throwing a slot limit barbecue.
I don't understand these people anyway because it is common knowledge that smaller trout of about 16" or less have a superior flavor and texture to an oily old lunker. So why not leave the monster genetics in the water? I fell in love with trout fishing years ago throwing rapalas and tangling with browns in the Provo and, eventually, I got hooked on fly fishing. I can't say how many times I have witnessed people in the trophy section up Provo canyon stringing a nice rainbow or cutthroat, not to mention, pulling out 20"+ browns on worms and stumbling to their cars to leave when they see me calling for a game warden that will never show up and won't follow up on my description of the vehicle and catch them on the road. If they can't trap these fools in the canyon, then how the heck can they prevent Stawberry from turning into Tibble Fork? I've thought of making a petition with local trout enthusiasts to better maintain the lower stretches of the Provo all the way down to UT Lake because this section has much more potential to support a great population along with some lunkers than some might think. This would include keeping stream flows at no less than the minimum to sustain fish through a drought year in the hot summer months and imposing the same size and harvest restrictions as in the designated trophy areas. I can remember fishing inside of town 12 years ago when rainbows were still stocked at Canyon View before whirling disease turned up. They made it down river and sustained a substantial reproducing and wild population which was complimented by a good number of more elusive browns in the mix. I can remember a 67 fish summer afternoon underneath the State Street bridge in Provo (65 rainbows and 2 browns) casting the same Rapala for hours until the paint got chipped all to hell. The largest brown I have ever seen from the Provo was landed that same week by a fly fisherman in the deep part of the fast riffle at the head of the Mormon Motion Picture Studios on a size 16 prince nymph. The fish was every bit of thirtythree inches long. I don't even want to guess how much he weighed. I'm sure there were and, maybe, still are some huge browns larger than that monster that still remain. A few drought years and alot of mexicans with cheese on a hook cleaned almost all of the rainbows out of the lower river and only the more elusive browns managed to survive in any significant numbers. If the lower river is going to make a comeback, then we pissed off anglers are going to have to do something since the government seems too overwhelmed to take charge of this situation. [mad]
[signature]