super fat vs. fish cat 4 dx

[okbow68]

Is the extra $150.00 there for the super fat cat versus the fishcat 4 deluxe? I am talking for a guy that weighs about 250-275. They look exactly the same. Any of you bigger guys that can speak from experience of trying both of these tubes for comparison?
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[tubeN2]

The FishCat4 and the FC4 deluxe are both rated for 250lbs.

The Fat Cat and Super Fat Cat are rated for 300lbs.

The FC and SFC also have the better quality Urethane bladder.

We do have some back threads on this subject but in a nutshell, the FC or the SFC would be the better buy for the bigger guy.[cool]
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[flygoddess]

For starters,
They both have inflateable seats, and 600 denier PVC cover.
IMHO I think the difference in the price is also due to the fact that SFC were Urethane, but the new models (as I hear it) are to be PVC/Vinyl.
That is also reflected in the weight of the two with the FCD at 14lbs and the SFC at 12lbs. Also the weight capacity. Now if you get the SFC WITH urethane then it all is understandable.

Here is some stats:

Fish Cat 4 Deluxe 44" X 54"

The Super Fat Cat: 45" X 64" so one inch wider and 10 inches longer.

The diameter of the tubes is a big difference and that stat I cannot find but maybe the owners of each here can give you that.
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[SHigSpeed]

My observations between the two are that there is maybe 3" or so more "nose" on the toons on the Fat. Also, if the width is truly only 1" more, then the diameters cannot be more than 1/2" more or you'll have a narrower seat. From the pics, the Fat Cat sure looks to be more than 1/2" more sausage than the Fish Cat...

You being a big guy probably would do well with the more air, but the $ diff is kinda big.

I love my Fish Cat Dx but I'm under ya by 100 lbs so I can't comment on how it'd do with you in the seat.

Of course the Urethane/Vinyl debate will rage on, and I"m still on the fence on that one...

I think the Fish Cat SHOULD support you safely, but the Fat Cat SHOULD ride you higher and safer and be a bit less tiring on long kicks.

_SHig
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[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]I have ridden both the Fish Cat and Fat Cat tubes. I am over 250 pounds and the Fish Cats WILL float my frame...and gear. However, not nearly as well as the Fat Cats. Just all around a better ride and more pocket space (FC). [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Do you need an inflatable seat? If not, I suggest you go with a regular Fat Cat and save the money on the added cost of the inflated seat. My wife likes the foam seats better, but I prefer the inflatable...even though I have had some "issues" with leaks in the inflated seats on my previous model. [/#0000ff]
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[flygoddess]

[url "http://www.bigfishtackle.com/cgi-bin/community/community.cgi?do=user_page;pg=user_profile_view.html;username=SHigSpeed"][/url][#63626b][/#63626b]SHigSpeed[/url] So as not to hi jack this thread, this will be brief. I was not entirly correct in saying that Urethane doesn't stretch...it does, it just doesn't balloon. It is thicker walled and will last MUCH longer. Vinyl is thin, in fact a rip has on occasion occurred from a fold in the bladder.
With Urethane being thicker and more durable, it can hold more air pressure, making it more buoyant.
I edited my answer on the other post with up to date info.
Sorry, back to the post.
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[SHigSpeed]

Nothing wrong with discussion!

However, more pressure does not equal more buoyancy. You can have a tube with a kevlar bladder and an equal dimensioned tube with vinyl. Take the vinyl one to a reasonable 4 psi, and the kevlar one to 100. The Kevlar one will float LOWER in the water all other things being equal because the weight of the air inside is more.

The amount of weight a tube will carry equals the amount of water that is displaced once loaded. The weight of this water doesn't care if the tube is merely rigid or rock hard.

OTOH, since I haven't had the privilege of inspecting a urethane bladder, if it IS thicker at the same or less weight, that's definitely worth something. Hook points and whiskerfish will have a harder time going through for sure.

I had also been concerned and therefore careful when inflating that all the folds were worked out under the skin prior to fully inflating the thing for the exact reason you mentioned - if it were "bound up" somehow I could definitely see causing a stroke!

_SHig
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[flygoddess]

You are most wise grasshopper. But with Kevlar already being heavier (I use kevlar thread in my sinking leaders for that reason) would that be cause for it to ride lower?

Hard versus soft. If you lie across a pipe filled with air, it will not change its form, but if you laid across a ballon tube filled with are, it is nolonger a tube but rather two balls at each side causing air displacement right?
Granted we already agree that the outer cover is the key to all tubes.

If you take a car tube and fill it with say 20 lbs of air, then you take the same size plastic kiddie tube, there is no way you are going to get the same amount of air in it. Which will float more weight at the same size?
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[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]You are correct. The basic laws of physics state that DISPLACEMENT OF WATER = BOUYANCY. A tube that holds 3 cubic feet of air...at whatever pressure...and made of whatever material...will displace only 3 cubic feet of water. And, the weight rating will be equivalent to the weight of the water displaced...not the size or shape of the bozo using the float tube.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]It is amusing to keep reading all of the pseudo technical opinions and assumptions...that urethane is stronger so it will float higher, etc. Also, the relative weight of the air bladder material will not make even a fraction of a difference in the floatation. Unless you are talking about lead vs vinyl. Then there would be enough weight to partially offset the water displacement weight.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]And...what everybody is overlooking is that there is not a universal standard for thickness of either vinyl or urethane in air bladders. A heavy mil thickness of vinyl could conceivably be just as strong and durable as "standard" urethane.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I HAVE been doing some heavy research on the differences in properties between urethane and vinyl. THERE IS NO DEFINITIVE WRITING OR WEBSITE that is devoted to addressing this issue, in the matter of float tube or pontoon air bladders. The best we can do is project or extrapolate from information that IS available. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]To distill what I have found: Urethane does have properties which make it more desirable for use as an air bladder for inflated items. On a mil per mil basis, it does have less elasticity and will hold more air pressure without material degradation or failure. That is probably why it is the quality standard of the air bed industry...even though there are some with thicker vinyl that have good warranties.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]PVC (vinyl) is less costly to make and the material is subject to the "migration" of polymers over time. In other words, vinyl does not remain stable or reliable as long as urethane. But, we are talking about decades...not a couple of years of use in a float tube.[/#0000ff]
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[SHigSpeed]

[quote flygoddess]You are most wise grasshopper. But with Kevlar already being heavier (I use kevlar thread in my sinking leaders for that reason) would that be cause for it to ride lower? [/quote]

Ah, but you don't have the micro-molecular 0.002 micron Kevlar bladder! Heavy is only a matter of thickness.

[quote flygoddess]Hard versus soft. If you lie across a pipe filled with air, it will not change its form, but if you laid across a ballon tube filled with are, it is nolonger a tube but rather two balls at each side causing air displacement right?
Granted we already agree that the outer cover is the key to all tubes.[/quote]

You're right, about pipe vs balloon, but that's moot when considering that the shape of the skin determines volume.

[quote flygoddess]If you take a car tube and fill it with say 20 lbs of air, then you take the same size plastic kiddie tube, there is no way you are going to get the same amount of air in it. Which will float more weight at the same size?[/quote]

20 lbs. Weight? Or inflation to 20 psi? If you fill a rubber car tube without a tire to 20 psi, it'll explode. Same with the kiddie tube. OTOH, if you fill them with the same volume of air, both will float the same amount of weight if you properly support it (using a skin or something similar) if you disregard the weight of the tube/seahorse. Pressure in a float tube primarily determines rigidity, not buoyancy. So to answer your question, both will float the same amount of weight at the same size.

_SHig
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[flygoddess]

I guess we're reading the same stuff, except I missed the BOZO part.

Why does Vinyl seem more effected by Temp and Alt change?
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[flygoddess]

But maybe it is the firmness that gives the sense of riding higher.
A thick skinned bladder with more air surrounded by a good solid cover = firmness.
Urethane does support more PSI then Vinyl, right?

Next question, if you drop a bowling ball and a marble from a tall building at the same time, which will hit the ground first?[]
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[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Most differences are at the molecular level. The polymers in PVC are more elastic and flexible, so they respond more to variations of temperature and pressure. You can make a bigger balloon with PVC of the same thickness than you can with one of urethane. Rigidity equals strength...under the same set of conditions...or so it would seem.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]And, as I suggested in my previous statements, the PVC materials degrade faster over time, so they do not last as long. In tuber's years, that might not mean much except added peace of mind...especially for the BOZO who insists on keeping their craft aired to the max, even on hot days and when travelling inside a vehicle.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]KABOOM.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]My riddle for you...If you dropped a democrat and a republican off the roof at the same time, which would hit the ground first?[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Who cares?[/#0000ff]
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[flygoddess]

Aw you answered that one before I could, part B...who cleans it up?![]
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[macfly55]

Id say who cares again..

.. have to say that this has been a very enlightening discussion of the pvc vs urethane topic.. Id say more so than ever before.. but that is just my .02 on it..

one question I did think of is this.. on the nav ii's that you and hubby have.. you have posted pics of the clearance between you and the water that showed there was quite a bit of clearance.. now does hubby have the same amount of clearance.. or is he lower.. and if so .. how much lower ??
(as a means of showing how the weight difference of the person using it has an impact on how high or low someone sits out of the water with the same craft set up to identical or near identical parameters.. and both fishing under the same conditions (water/air temp etc).

I realize the nav ii's are not the topic of discussion.. but I am one that believes that a picture is worth a thousand words.. and if basic physics are the same no matter what (and I believe they are)..then the only variable in question would be the weight of the person using the craft.. and how much weight in "extras" is added (rods/reels/motors etc)...

MacFly [cool]
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[flygoddess]

That is a good question. According to the discussion, he should be floating the same as me...right?
We will have to check next outing.
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[macfly55]

I am not sure he would be floating the same.. but I would think his added weight would "push" the toon lower into the water.. but I am not sure that is the definiton of water displacement as explained here .. so in this case my curiosity is awakened and waiting to see the results..

MacFly [cool]
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[flygoddess]

I think this comes under the heading SHig stated as weighted air mass maybe.
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[SHigSpeed]

[quote flygoddess]But maybe it is the firmness that gives the sense of riding higher.
A thick skinned bladder with more air surrounded by a good solid cover = firmness.
Urethane does support more PSI then Vinyl, right?

Next question, if you drop a bowling ball and a marble from a tall building at the same time, which will hit the ground first?[/quote]

Bladder thickness has ZERO effect on firmness. A SaranWrap bladder at 4 psi in a Fat Cat skin will feel just as firm as a 1/8" thick urethane skin in the same skin at the same pressure.

As for psi, the skin is what determines the max pressure. Now if you take the bladder out of the bag, depending on thickness, urethane most likely will support more pressure. But the only time that's a bonus is if your main seam splits and your bag's guts come out. A super thick vinyl bladder will hold more pressure than a thin urethane one of course!

For the marble and bowling ball question, the answer is "it depends". I'll wager that a 6 lb kiddie ball vs a marble made of depleted uranium, the marble might have half a chance!

_SHig
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[SHigSpeed]

Oh, and as far as hubby sitting lower, he most CERTAINLY would sit lower.

I'd guess he's 100 lbs more than you? Then you'd need to have 100 lbs worth of volume of water (approx 12 gallons more) of tube under water. Assume the cross section of the 'toons at the water line is 8" wide and 48" long (total WAG here) x 2, you'd sink just over 3.5" lower (assuming the pontoon was totally rigid and didn't banana in the center). (8" x 48") x 2 pontoons x 3.6" deep = ~12 gallons = ~100 lbs of water.

If I could get the actual dims on the actual 'toon I could get closer.

_SHig

edited - wrong calcs!
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