night fishing state park fees

[PaHnTr760]

WORD!!!!
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[fuzzyfisher]

this is the Legislative Law of Easement governing road's in the state of utah:

117 (3) The grant of the temporary public easement or right of entry under Subsection (1) is
118 consistent with the trust responsibilities of the state and in the best interest of the state.
119 (4) A responsible authority that has been granted a permanent easement or right of
120 entry over state lands may maintain the permanent easement or right of entry for the uses to

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121
which the permanent easement or right of entry was put prior to and including January 1, 1992,
122 subject to the right of the managing unit of state government or private party to relocate the
123 permanent easement or right of entry.
124 (5) The grant of a permanent easement or right of entry under this section is effective
125 on the date the highway was originally constructed or established for public use.
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[waljustia]

[quote fuzzyfisher] if the road was billt by the state, county, or city it is public access![/quote]

2 things..
1 I didn't know that they charge to launch at Indian in starvation.. I didn't see any fee stations or poles.. I must have missed something.

2. If like you said in the above quote.. it is built by the state.. why do you have to pay to use their parking lot.. it was built by the state.. right? Why do you have to pay to use the facilities? It was built by the state. Why can't they just have the fee station and have them say "Do you got Utah ID?, OK your free to go in " In other words.. if you are a resident of Utah.. why do you have to pay to use facilities built by the STATE?

The roads, I understand, because every time we are at the gas pump.. we pay road tax. So, I assume that since we pay road tax, we can use the roads for free. So, we pay state income tax and state sales tax.. why doesn't our taxes cover the facilities at the state parks..

I have never thought of it before like you said Fuzzy... we just always open the wallet and give them the money.. so that we can use facilities that we as citizens of that state payed for to be built???!

The state had a HUGE Surplus in taxes this last year... I can't remember the number and don't want to look it up.. but was >100 million.. I showed up at starvation and because of my timing.. I gave them 14 dollars so I could walk down on a beach and stand there and fish for ~4 hours!

So, my question is.. where does the state parks get it's funding.. Why are there all these other state built buildings and facilities that we as the public built and enter for free... but if there is something by the water.. or you gotta drive up a canyon (alpine loop) you gotta give them money.. WTH?
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[Vivid-Dawn]

Good point.
Drat!
So if I took my $75 I was going to use for the pass, and the fee is $13 a night, that means I can only "camp" 6 times a year. And I was planning on going every weekend [:/]

So what happens if somebody who wants to fish has a medical condition like Schere's disease, or [font "Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"][size 3]Xeroderma Pigmentosum (it's literally fatal to be in the sun)[/size][/font] ... wouldn't making them pay extra, be some sort of discrimination? So unfair!
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[fuzzyfisher]

well what your supose to be paying for is the cleen up and matenace of the park... and i under stand that! not what i have a problem with!! that's the area astablished as the park. where the tralers are parked and the fancy stuff is. not primitave camping or boat camping!! that should be free where is the matenace? if they have a problem with trash in the area there are alredy law's to deal with that!! not makeing everyone pay..

i License my boat and pay tax's when i do..
i license my truck and pay tax's when i do..
i license my camper and pay tax's when i do..
i pay property tax's evey year..
i pay sales tax every time i buy something
the state takes tax's out of my pay check evey week..

there for why should i be taxed again and again for useing land and water that i'm allredy paying tax's on?
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[Kent]

[quote Vivid-Dawn]So what happens if somebody who wants to fish has a medical condition like Schere's disease, or [font "Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"][size 3]Xeroderma Pigmentosum (it's literally fatal to be in the sun)[/size][/font] ... wouldn't making them pay extra, be some sort of discrimination? So unfair![/quote]

When did life become fair?[:/] I must have missed that announcement.
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[fishin_nut]

Hate paying the fees too, particularly the high price of the state camping fees in places that have not seen much in real improvements.

An observation that I have made and think it probably is so for the other bodies of water that the state parks are on is that they resevoir and storage areas are not actually owend by the state, they are actually owned by some other entity such as at Willard it is owned by the Bureau of Reclamation (FED).

I'll bet that the management of the grounds around and activities such as law enforcement, bouy setting, dock maintenance are under long term agreements and investiment by the state through the Division of Natural Resources and that the quality of those services are in a pretty direct coorelation to the number of users and therefore the fees collected.
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[dubob]

[quote MRCRESTLINER]Food for thought, so if I have a State Park Pass and launch my boat during day use hrs. then park my truck outside the gate and fish all night then retrieve my truck the next morning I would still be considered camping?[/quote]
[size 4][font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]BINGO![/#800000][/font][/size]
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[size 4][font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]As I see this issue, if you are not actually using the LAND that the State Park controls, you do not have to pay the camping fee. The same would apply to launching a boat from an area outside the State Park land as described at Starvation. In any case, you are not using State Park controlled areas and the fee is not applicable.[/#800000][/font][/size]
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[size 4][font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]At Willard, you could have somebody launch your boat for you and drive the truck and trailer home and then come back and pick you up the next morning and you would not have to pay the camping fee.[/#800000][/font][/size]
[quote fuzzyfisher]well right now there is NO free access to boats on Yuba OR Starvation! so yes you would be charged more for driveing your truck out and bringing it back in.. inless you have a day pass.. 9.00 day use 2 days is 18.00 bucks.. 1 night is 16.00.. and you would still be charged for camping ether way![/quote]
[size 4][font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]Not if you have an annual pass![/#800000][/font][/size]
[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000][size 4] [/size][/#800000][/font]
[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000][size 4]Look folks, taxes pretty much cover the essentials in life like police and fire protection. Fishing, hunting, and camping are NOT essentials even though some of us THINK they are. Whether you see improvements in recreational facilities or not, they ALL cost money to keep them viable. It is a fact of life. In today’s world of ever higher costs for everything, most government entities have shifted funding for recreation to a user fee system. Those entities that haven’t done it yet will do so in the very near future. It is what it is. You do not have to like it, but you do have to live with it. Get over it and move on. Life is way too short to get all bent out of shape over things that you have absolutely no control over.[/size][/#800000][/font]
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[fuzzyfisher]

you must not have read the very first post! the responce by the state parks person at starvation! go back and read what they consiter as boat camping!

and how can there be free access to any of the water if the state park have taken once free area's and now they say they are pay area's? why if once free now pay? same with Yuba?

and we don't have control over what happens to our land and our water? why would you think other wise? just becouse a state run program thinks it has the right to TAKE (anex) public land and charge money to use it makes it right? it's thinking like that, that makes this happen in the first place? NEVER GIVE UP YOUR RIGHT TO SAY THIS IS NOT RIGHT!!!!

last time i checked utah is still part of the USA where the pepole have rights to the public land by LAW..
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[fairwayphilly]

Here's my take on the whole thing.
I think $75 a year is cheap to have ramps, cleaning stations, hazard bouys, etc. I have no problem paying for the facilities I use. I wish Strawberry and Pineview had state park facilities. If I pull in and use the camp sites at one of the state parks I expect to pay to use those facilities and I have no problem with my pass being a "Day use" pass, but if I'm out fishing at night as far as I'm concerned using the parking lot and ramp at night is the same as using during the day. I don't care if I am "boat camping". I'm not using the restrooms or any of the improved facilities and shouldn't be charged an extra fee. I don't care if my truck/trailer sits in the lot for three or four days; honestly is that any different than driving it out at 10 pm and back in at 6 AM.

As far as adressing the original post, the fact that the poster has been charged something different everytime he comes in shows that the current system is somewhat rediculous and at very least confusing because even the park employees have no idea what the fee schedule should be.
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[moonburnt]

first i want to state again that i support the state parks department. i think they do a great job at all of the state parks that i visit. i can understand their need to collect fees for using the parks. i think their fees, as well as the cost of a fishing license, are a little high but i see that problem coming more from the legislature than the parks department and dwr. if i understand things correctly the parks department and the dwr depend on state funding as well as collected fees. so when we see an increase in park fees and fishing and hunting license fees it's usually, if not always, caused by the legislature cutting back the funding to the parks and to the dwr. therefore i've always figured if i had a problem with the fees being too high i should take my complaint to the legislature. which i haven't done as of yet but may soon. my problem is with having to pay $13 for a parking spot that only costs someone else $7. i'm not using any different facilities than the $7 person so why should i have to pay $13? does it cost more to maintain the facilities at night? it certainly can't cost more to have my truck parked in a parking spot at night than it does during the day.

anyway, i found the park rules and regulations on their website [url "http://stateparks.utah.gov/about/"]http://stateparks.utah.gov/about/[/url]. i believe the section which deals with boat camping is: R651-611-4 B. boat mooring and dry storage. 1. mooring fees: c. overnight boat camping-$15.00 (until 2:00 pm). i'll attach the entire pdf file to this message. i still haven't been able to find contact info for the board members yet.
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[neveronsunday]

[font "Verdana"][#ff0000]I asked utahsteelheader the same question about Willard and this is the thread to his reply. I didn't worry about it after that with a season pass. Hopefully this boat camping garbage fee doesn't stick.... If you need help jumping on desks and rattling cages over this one I'm In!![/#ff0000][/font]
[url "http://www.bigfishtackle.com/cgi-bin/gforum/gforum.cgi?post=275071;#275071"]http://www.bigfishtackle.com/cgi-bin/gforum/gforum.cgi?post=275071;#275071[/url]
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[Vivid-Dawn]

[quote kentofnsl][quote Vivid-Dawn]So what happens if somebody who wants to fish has a medical condition like Schere's disease, or [font "Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"][size 3]Xeroderma Pigmentosum (it's literally fatal to be in the sun)[/size][/font] ... wouldn't making them pay extra, be some sort of discrimination? So unfair![/quote]

When did life become fair?[:/] I must have missed that announcement.[/quote]

It's called the American Disabilities Act! [] *nods sagely*
LOL
Okay, I'll quit now
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[moonburnt]

neveronsunday shhhhhh. i'm trying to keep the names of other places i fish at night out of the conversation. partly because i don't want all parks to end up like starvation and partly because i don't want any rangers to get into any trouble. like i mentioned before starvation is the only park that i have ever been charged a "boat camping" fee. i have been all night fishing at various lakes and reservoirs throughout the state for probably a little over 20 years now and at starvation for nearly 20 years. in those 20+ years starvation is the only park that has charged me anything more than a day use fee.

btw since you brought it up willard is a great place to fish at night. i usually like to hit it around the june full moon. i haven't done it for a couple of years though because the low water reports make me a little too nervous.

thanks for your support. at fuzzy's request i'm working on a letter that we can all either copy and send or sign in some way to send to the parks board to let them know how strongly we disagree with this ridiculous fee. i would welcome any suggestions.
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[mactuna]

They charge the night boat fee every where we have gone this year, that covers almost all the lakes.
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[fuzzyfisher]

i just looked at the rules link you posted.. one thing i found intresting is the Definion of camping area! did not see anything that said your camp site could move? lol..

here is there Defintion of park area: Park Area means any individual park property in the park System..

ok going by that Defintion they would have to section off the lake into areas to be able to charge for boat camping..

Dfintion of park System: means all natural and cultural resource and all building and other improvements owned,leased or otherwise managed by the division..

ok so in the case of Yuba i know for a fact a lot of the land around the lake is private property. (may be the same at starvation i don't know the area as well). so they can not call the whole lake and surounding area a state park.. so if i call in a faver from a land owner and he said it was ok for me to camp on his property i just need to access the area by boat. i pay the launch fee and pull my truck out of the state park area (not parked in the park day ues area) . am i still boat camping?
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[neveronsunday]

[font "Verdana"][#ff0000]One thing that I have done is when I check in or go through the gate and show my pass I tell the park person that we are planning on doing some late night catfishing and not to be alarmed to see my rig and empty trailer in the parking lot tonight and if they would like me to leave a little note on my window pass or something. They usually say something like are you legally lighted, be careful, be safe, have fun and good luck. [/#ff0000][/font]
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[lunkerhunter2]

ditto for me[]
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[fuzzyfisher]

well go to Yuba or Starvation and try it! see what happens [:/]..

there may be another way of going about this as well.. some of the land owners in the area of Yuba have no love for the state parks.. so there might be a way of talking them into alowing public easement over they'er land to access the lake! this would take a good deal business away from the parks.. and the fee would be very small like 2 to 4 buck's. one time in fee. as long as your in there your good!

it very that the public need's to go to privet owers and ask for access to public lands and water tho!
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[moonburnt]

fuzzy asked me if i'd come up with a form letter to send to the state parks board for everyone to copy. if anyone has any critique or suggestions please let me know. here's what i've got so far. sorry about the length.


[center][font "Times New Roman"]State Park Fees[/font]
[font "Times New Roman"] [/font]
[font "Times New Roman"]As a frequent user of various Utah state parks I have been charged a fee that I feel is unfair and should either be changed or clarified. The fee is referred to by Mike Nealley, the Park Manager at Starvation state park, as a “boat camping” fee. Mike informed me that the fee at Starvation is $13 unless I have an annual park pass and then the fee would be $11. After reading over the rules posted on the state parks website the “boat camping” fee seems to come from section R651-611-4. Special Fees. B. Boat Mooring and Dry Storage. 1. Mooring Fees. c. Overnight Boat Camping-$15.00 (until 2:00 pm).[/font]
[font "Times New Roman"] [/font]
[font "Times New Roman"]There are a few species of fish where fishing for them may be better at night. Starvation reservoir is one of the bodies of water in Utah with a species of fish (Walleye) that many people fish for during the night. I have been informed by Mike that when I fish at night I am required to pay the $13 fee instead of the $7 day use fee. According to Mike what I am doing, whether fishing or not, is considered boat camping because the park closes at 10:00 pm. What I am doing is fishing and not mooring my boat. That I know of there are no mooring docks at Starvation.[/font]
[font "Times New Roman"] [/font]
[font "Times New Roman"]I have noticed in section R651-611-3 Camping Fees, the camping fees appear to be set at different rates depending on facilities made available. Naturally the fee increases with the number of facilities available. This seems perfectly reasonable to me as more facilities require more money to maintain. However, the “boat camping” fee being charged at Starvation does not give a person any access to any facilities that aren’t available to “day use” users. The only thing different is that people who spend the night on their boats, whether fishing or camping, at Starvation are asked to park in a designated parking area which is further from the lake than the day use area. This designated area is also used for overflow parking on the rare (if ever) occasions when the day use parking lot fills. So for the $13 fee for “boat camping” instead of the $7 fee for “day use” the only thing you get at Starvation is a further walk to the lake. It can’t possibly cost the state park $6 more to maintain a parking spot at night than in the day.[/font]
[font "Times New Roman"] [/font]
[font "Times New Roman"]So why does a normally $7 parking spot cost $13? If I arrive at the state park at 9:00 am, launch my boat and go fishing until 9:00 pm the fee is $7. However, if I arrive at the state park at 9:00 pm, launch my boat and go fishing until 9:00 am the fee is $13. I believe that the “boat camping” fee should be merged with the “day use” fee. Perhaps instead of the $7 day use fee expiring at 10:00 pm it should be considered a 24 hour fee? I’m hoping that this issue can be resolved so those of us who choose to fish at night can enjoy the state parks without feeling like we’ve been ripped off. I greatly appreciate your help in this matter.[/font]
[font "Times New Roman"] [/font]
[font "Times New Roman"]Sincerely,[/font]
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