Utah should ban all bait completely where they have slot limits

[clipripper]

my oldest daughter who is now 9 has been fishing with me since she was 4

"And most of this talk of fishing with kids isn't really valid. How many people are really taking out 3-8 year old kids and how often? After 8-10 years old they can throw lures just like the rest of us."
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[Jacksonman]

Agreed. I took mine out when she was under 18 months ice fishing on Mill Meadow and she loved it. I take her out on the boat all the time. I just don't see the need to use her as an excuse for keeping more fish and rather enjoy the opportunity to let fish go to teach her lessons about respecting nature.

Again, nothing against bait fishing at certain places or keeping some fish but I would prefer if treble hooks were not allowed for bait fishing waters with slot limits, I would prefer increasing slot limit to 24" and included all trout in them, and then allowing one fish in the slot to be taken home to allow anglers to keep that one fish that just won't make it.

But I would also prefer certain waters remain slotless to keep them family fisheries too. I think there is enough water to keep everyone happy.

Now off to Nine Mile, Fish Lake, Mill Meadow, Otter and Piute! Maybe a report on Sunday.
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[Jacksonman]

I am not saying it doesn't happen and I actually hopes it happens often. I am just saying that most of the time when I am fishing the big trout waters, 95% of the fishermen do not have young children with them. That is all. Arguing that we shouldn't change baiting fishing rules at Strawberry "because of the children" just isn't a valid arguement in my book. So few children under 8 actually fish Strawberry, and the ones that do, most are in boats and can learn to jig or troll or are on the ice and have to jig.
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[flygoddess]

[quote doggonefishin]Do you fish in any or the fisheries that have slot limits? Besides the fact that the overall fishing in these areas is usually excellent, it is apparent when you catch the slot fish that the slaughter you picture is not happening.

Next time you fish Strawberry and pull up a slot cutt, inspect the mouth carefully and see how many times it has been caught. I lot of thse guys have been caught 4-5 times. Same for big Jordanelle bass. (slot now expired[:/])
I maintain at Strawberry that almost as many slotters are lost from pulling them up from deep water into the warm surface water during the hot months (regardless of lure/bait type) as are lost by bait use.[/quote]


I agree with deep, deep. it is said to pause when retrieving over 30' deep.
But I wonder, how warm does the water get at Strawberry.

(quote)"Stratification of Strawberry Reservoir is evident by the middle of July and continues through September. The surface temperatures during these months commonly exceed 20 °C (68° F)while temperatures from mid-depth to the bottom rarely exceed 15 °C. (59°)."

These seem pretty normal aren't they?
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[redneck_delux]

[quote pookiebar]

If you don't take them when they are young they don't have much interest in going regularly when they are older.[/quote]


couldnt agree more. and as for going to the store to buy fish? how about NO! as long as its legal i will take whatever i want from the water, and to be honest i hate it when people try to influence what i do and or dont do with OUR recources. what i harvest is between me the dnr and the all mighty. so if yer such an advocate of going and buying fish from the store why dont you hang your rods on the wall and let them collect dust?

[doggonefishin]

We have talked about this before, but your quote does seem to be on the money

"The surface temperatures during these months commonly exceed 20°C (68° F) while temperatures from mid-depth to the bottom rarely exceed 15 °C. (59°)."

The surface temp is the key to summertime C&R survival and most studies I have read say 70 degrees is where the problems really become large. The diff between 68 and 70 is minimal and the quote does say "exceed". Although not totally an apples-to apples comparison, didn't Montana enact a temporary emergency closure on the Madison a couple of years back during a heatwave, because the water temps exceeded 70 degrees?

I guess IMO, if one is concerned about good C&R, (and many of us should be) fish the high country during the heatwaves or go for warmwater species.
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[PBH]

[quote doggonefishin]
I guess IMO, if one is concerned about good C&R, (and many of us should be) fish the high country during the heatwaves or go for warmwater species.[/quote]

couldn't this same logic be applied to other circumstances? For instance, what about bass anglers that catch bass in colder months from deep water? This causes problems for those bass because they have a swim bladder that expands when pulled rapidly from deep water, and cause the bass to have problems. So, in the minds of many bass anglers, the solution is to "fizz" the bass and then send them back on their way to the depths (after puncturing the fish with hypodermic needle).

Maybe, like you suggested above ("fish the high country during heat waves...") these anglers should change their tactics and fish for some other species, or fish a different location and leave those "vulnerable" fish alone?

This same situation could be applied to perch as well.
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[doggonefishin]

RE"hat about bass anglers that catch bass in colder months from deep water? This causes problems for those bass because they have a swim bladder that expands when pulled rapidly from deep water, and cause the bass to have problems. So, in the minds of many bass anglers, the solution is to "fizz" the bass and then send them back on their way to the depths (after puncturing the fish with hypodermic needle)."


I realize that a certain prominent basser likes to get on here and boast about doing this, but you may be surprised to know that I and several others that like to fish for bass agree with you. It is exactly the same and I don't like to haul up bass from the depths like that. The increased mortality is clearly proven. Fortunately, when the bass are that deep, the trout fishing is the best, so no problem finding something to catch.


RE"This same situation could be applied to perch as well. "

I never thought that I'd see the day when YOU were defending perch. What is the temperature in the netherworld today? FWIW, the point would be valid except that 99.99998 percent of perch anglers will be releasing the perch into a bowl of batter and then a frying pan as opposed to the water.
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[TS30]

I think you all have been taken hook, line, and sinker. I think there is a reason he picked the lake with the most angler hours and bait used in the state to make his point that bait shouldn't be allowed at Strawberry. In fact, I think a couple of you are gut hooked currently...might want to check into that.

I'm a fly fisherman 99% of the time. I use bait when I ice fish. And I have used bait to take my daughter out fishing with me as well (just turned 4 years old). I have nothing against bait, and I don't think they need to disallow bait at Strawberry. The fishery is doing great. No reason to fix something that isn't broken. But I think the old "what will the kids do" argument is old and tired. My daughter has 10 times more fun having me cast out a fly and bubble and her reeling it in than me casting out a bubble and powerbait and her being expected to sit there and watch it. It's by far the most boring way to fish in the world, and if kids were introduced to the other types they'd enjoy it just as much...if not more. It's just that most parents don't want to do that because it takes too much of their time fishing. If you just have to bait a hook every once in a while and cheer them on here and there you still get time to fish yourself. If you have to help with tangles, help with casting every minute or so, etc, you aren't fishing yourself. I think that's the real reason behind it for the vast majority of people. Again, I'm not saying bait should be disallowed, or even that it's bad. But that excuse that is frequently thrown out on this topic is lame and doesn't hold water.

PS- My daughter (she was 3 at the time) LOVED going out in the back yard and casting the 6' 2 weight fly rod I have waiting for her this summer. In fact, she had just as good of a time doing that as she did up at trial lake tossing powerbait and catching fish this summer. So my personal experience that kids won't enjoy fly fishing is hog wash. Just have to be willing to spend your time helping them enjoy it rather than you enjoying your own time fishing.
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[retch_sweeney]

[quote Tarponjim]Every single sentence, all 5 of them in the first paragraph of the original post, is wrong!

1. I don't bait fish except for burbot on the Gorge, but kids and new comers without "expert" guidance need the option to go waters and fish with bait. Certain fisheries can handle this just fine. Some benefit.

2. Bait does not kill as many large lake trout as GUIDEMAN does! Never will! "Poacher?" (His word in the sentence, not mine!)

3. 50 percent of deeply hooked fish where the line is cut do not die. That's hogwash. Google it, read, whatever. Just a bad statistic.

4.The slot limit at Strawberry is working. READ the fishing reports! People catch the piss out of the fish there, nice ones too!

5. Most people DO NOT fish all day long trying to catch the BIG fish to keep. They're smart enough to keep the smaller fish, and let the big one's go! What a concept!


The post began with, "Utah should ban all bait completely, live, dead or stuff out of a bottle."

While that would not affect my own fishing, its still completely rediculous. But, who should be suprised given the history of the OP?[/quote]

Very well said!

Arrogant people can be ignored but arrogant people spouting lies must be dealt with harshly. Thanks for the great response.[cool]
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[dubob]

[quote fuzzyfisher]ya left out some lakes..

Joe's valley, scofield, fish lake of a sort on lake trout. come to mind...
oh and all the lakes the DWR have planted tiger musky!![/quote]

[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]Actually Ron, that would depend on how you define a slot limit. When a lake restriction is just anything over a certain length or just anything under a certain length, I wouldn’t define that as a slot. My previous post broke out the lakes that have a true slot such as Strawberry’s under 15 inches and over 22 inches. Joe’s Valley, Scofield, etc., restrict fish over a certain length but there is no lower limit (other than zero) which to my mind is not a slot. You could make the argument that zero to 18 inches is a slot; but I don't because there is nothing that will fit below the lower limit of zero[/#800000][/font]
[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000] [/#800000][/font]
[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]That’s why I said only 5 bodies of water in Utah have a true slot limit. There are many more reasons why Guidemans proposal may not be in Utah’s best interest but using the argument that removing 5 bodies of water from the use of most children in the state who have hundreds of other bodies to pick from is weak at best. That was the only point I was attempting to make.[/#800000][/font]
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[Fishrmn]

Joe’s Valley, Scofield, etc., restrict fish over a certain length but there is no lower limit (other than zero) which to my mind is not a slot. You could make the argument that zero to 18 inches is a slot; but I don't because there is nothing that will fit below the lower limit of zero

Saywhat ???

Scofield Reservoir, Carbon and Utah counties ▲ • Limit 4 trout in the aggregate. • No more than 2 may be cutthroat or tiger
trout under 15 inches, and no more than 1 may be a cutthroat or tiger trout over 22 inches.
• All cutthroat and tiger trout from 15 to 22 inches must be immediately released.
• Trout may not be filleted, and the heads or tails may not be removed in the field or in transit.
• Any trout with cutthroat markings is considered to be a cutthroat trout. To learn how to identify the fish in this water, see the detailed descriptions that begin on page 47.

Sounds just like a slot limit to me. Maybe I'm missing somethin'.
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[TS30]

Yes, Scofield has a slot limit.
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[in2fishing]

SAY WHAT ??? HARD TO BELIEVE THAT SOME ONE WHO TRIES TO CLAM [ GUIDEMAN] AS HIS HANDEL WOULD POST SOMETHING SO NOT TRUE!!!! WERE YOU DRUNK WHEN YOU THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA FOR POST ON BFT? BRO WHAT WAS YOU THINKING?
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[GUIDEMAN]

For every one of you know-it-all's
The know-it-all has an opinion on everything regardless of whether they actually know anything about the subject or not. You know the type: something is self-evidently true purely because they happen to think it.

So lets see what the North American Journal of Fisheries Management has to say about hooking mortality.

"evidence in studies
of hooking mortality that salmonids caught on bait
sustain a higher percentage (30-50%) of mortalities when released than those caught on flies and
lures (5-10%) (Mongillo 1984)"

See http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres...tality.pdf

GUIDEMAN
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[dubob]

[quote Fishrmn]

Scofield Reservoir, Carbon and Utah counties ▲ • Limit 4 trout in the aggregate. • No more than 2 may be cutthroat or tiger
trout under 15 inches, and no more than 1 may be a cutthroat or tiger trout over 22 inches.

Sounds just like a slot limit to me. Maybe I'm missing somethin'.[/quote][font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]My bad – I missed that in my original research. There is indeed a slot limit for Scofield. So the total number of water bodies with a slot limit for trout is 6, not 5. I stand corrected. Thank you. [][/#800000][/font]
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[fuzzyfisher]

i consiter a slot limit as any limit on the size of fish i can keep!

if i can go to a body of water and catch any size fish in there and take it home there is not a slot limit on the body of water..

if i go to a body of water and there is a fish of any kind that i have to let go becouse of it's size one way or the other then it's a slot limit fish..

you define it any way you want tho.. [sly]
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[PBH]

[quote GUIDEMAN]For every one of you know-it-all's ...


GUIDEMAN[/quote]

glad you found something in these 3 pages, save a little face.


so, you're still wrong on your original post. Utah shouldn't eliminate bait on waters with slot limits.
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[GUIDEMAN]

''Hooking Location
The location of hooking has been shown to affect catch-and-release mortality. Catchand-
release mortality of white seabass was directly related to hooking location, and all
mortalities involved hook damage to the visceral region (Aalbers et al., 2004). Similar results
have been found for largemouth bass in which 56% of fish hooked in the esophagus died, while
the mortality of fish hooked in other areas was not significantly different than fish that were not
hooked at all (Pelzman, 1978). Dextrase and Ball (1991) found that hooking mortality of lake
trout was largely restricted to those fish that were deeply hooked. Mortality in northern pike was
also greater in fish that were deeply hooked (Dubois et al., 1994). Schisler and Bergersen (1996)
reported that mortality of rainbow trout was significantly greater for fish hooked in the gill
arches or esophagus than superficially hooked fish, and this increased mortality was attributed to
bleeding intensity associated with hooking location. These studies all point to the fact that fish
which are deeply hooked suffer increased mortality."

SEE http://www.wildtroutstreams.com/CatchRel...elines.pdf

GUIDEMAN
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[MMDon]

Guideman, Your data comes under the heading of so what. You are still talking about put and take waters and fish. Mortality is figured into the price of admission which in this case is a fishing license. These fish are planted for the fishing public's use. You look like a windbag where your argument goes against the grain of the majority public good. Maybe you should only fish trophy fisheries and not play in the public ponds since there is less of you and more of the rest.
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