05-26-2016, 03:38 PM
[quote PBH]TD and I agree on many things. We just get to that conclusion in different ways. And, I type in black, he prefers [#0000ff]bold blue[#000000] letters.
Q: What would happen if you reduced the amount of predators, specifically perch?
A: young-of-the-year chubs would show up again.
The only reason smb are targeting perch is because that's all that's available right now. Reduce the perch and they would be replaced by other species (ie: chubs, shiners, etc.) which the smb would then utilize as a food source.
This isn't much different than Fish Lake and the lake trout. What are the lake trout eating? Rainbow trout. Why? Because chubs are missing. Why are chubs missing? Because the illegally introduced perch wipe out the young-of-the-year.
It is very obvious that the problem with Jordanelle is perch. Just like every other lake they show up in, they cause problems. So, figure out a way to reduce their spawning capabilities and knock their population back. You do that, and your smb will thrive. [/#000000][/#0000ff][/quote]
[#0000FF]For the benefit of those who perceive our "interactions" as rivalry and hostility, let me agree with your statement that we do agree on most basic issues. We have a history. And I DO respect you for your knowledge and abilities.
That being said, I have to wonder if you have ever traced your ancestry back as far as Marie Antoinette. As I recall my history lessons, when she was told that her French subjects had no bread to eat she replied "Let them eat cake". Your proposal to eliminate perch from Jordanelle and let the bass and trout eat other foods is about the same...and makes just as much sense. THERE IS NO OTHER FOOD.
You suggest that in the absence of perch the chubs would magically reappear in sufficient numbers to feed the masses. My questions are 1. how long will that take...and 2. What are they to eat in the meantime?
You cite the problems caused by perch in Fish Lake...a trout pond. The problem and the results are visible. But what about some of the other lakes in which smallies had the same effect...wiping out chubs and/or perch?
Notably we have Starvation. It was formerly a festering chub hole in which it was tough for all except a few big brown trout to survive. Walleyes and smallmouth were introduced and within a short time had reduced Starvation to the current state of Jordanelle...nothing left but giant chubosaurs. Then the walleyes and smallies began to stunt. BUT, then someone introduced perch. Their population exploded...providing a super food source for the walleyes and smallies...and both grew and prospered...along with the perch.
Let's look at Deer Creek. For decades it was full of perch, had lots of healthy largemouths, plenty of big walleyes...and lots of crawdads. Smallmouths were transplanted from Flaming Gorge in the 80's. They grew fast and their population exploded. All of a sudden the crawdads were no longer to be found crawling over all the bottom areas. Perch went into a decline and today it is difficult to even find and catch any...because the stunting smallmouths eat all the baby perch before they can grow beyond fingerling size.
And, about the big chubs. They are their own worst enemies for recruitment of any spawning success. Big chubs become piscivorous and slurp up newly hatched fry of all species...perch, smallmouth, trout and even their own young. At the Deer Valley Ponds...near Park City...I used to catch lots of chubs for (dead) bait . For several years there were plenty of chubs of all sizes. I culled out the ones I liked best for size. Then, within a year or two, there were nothing but a few big chubs. And after they spawned I made minnow runs to try to capture some smaller ones. No good. The ponds were boiling with big chubs assassinating inch long baby chubs. When I returned a couple of months later there were again only the big chubs. No young at all.
Bottom line? Although each species has traits that remain similar regardless of habitat, each lake develops its own unique ecological system. And because Utah waters are mostly dammed impoundments...not natural lakes...they are subject to great water fluctuations and even being totally drained in any given year. Tough for any species to establish and maintain a healthy growing population.
A lot of the problems, as we have discussed and mostly agreed upon, are the result of a fluctuating or scarce food supply. And when the primary food source suffers drastic setbacks it affects all the predators that rely upon that food source for survival.
The term "tipping point" has come up in previous discussions. When the population or abundance of a given food source (perch, chubs, crawdads, etc.) drops below the ability of the water to regenerate it everything goes into a downward tailspin. That is what happened at Deer Creek, Jordanelle, Fish Lake and other waters. I seem to recall that the chub population of Flaming Gorge went from nasty to nothing with a few years...as the smallie population grew. And we have seen it in various forms on Yuba several times during the 5 decades I have fished it and watched it.
We may disagree on reasons and remedies at times. But we can always agree that Utah still has some pretty good fishing...and good management. It is tough to manage the unmanageable. And with the nature of our waters and climate we simply have to be properly grateful for the good times and weather out the bad ones.
[/#0000FF]
[signature]
Q: What would happen if you reduced the amount of predators, specifically perch?
A: young-of-the-year chubs would show up again.
The only reason smb are targeting perch is because that's all that's available right now. Reduce the perch and they would be replaced by other species (ie: chubs, shiners, etc.) which the smb would then utilize as a food source.
This isn't much different than Fish Lake and the lake trout. What are the lake trout eating? Rainbow trout. Why? Because chubs are missing. Why are chubs missing? Because the illegally introduced perch wipe out the young-of-the-year.
It is very obvious that the problem with Jordanelle is perch. Just like every other lake they show up in, they cause problems. So, figure out a way to reduce their spawning capabilities and knock their population back. You do that, and your smb will thrive. [/#000000][/#0000ff][/quote]
[#0000FF]For the benefit of those who perceive our "interactions" as rivalry and hostility, let me agree with your statement that we do agree on most basic issues. We have a history. And I DO respect you for your knowledge and abilities.
That being said, I have to wonder if you have ever traced your ancestry back as far as Marie Antoinette. As I recall my history lessons, when she was told that her French subjects had no bread to eat she replied "Let them eat cake". Your proposal to eliminate perch from Jordanelle and let the bass and trout eat other foods is about the same...and makes just as much sense. THERE IS NO OTHER FOOD.
You suggest that in the absence of perch the chubs would magically reappear in sufficient numbers to feed the masses. My questions are 1. how long will that take...and 2. What are they to eat in the meantime?
You cite the problems caused by perch in Fish Lake...a trout pond. The problem and the results are visible. But what about some of the other lakes in which smallies had the same effect...wiping out chubs and/or perch?
Notably we have Starvation. It was formerly a festering chub hole in which it was tough for all except a few big brown trout to survive. Walleyes and smallmouth were introduced and within a short time had reduced Starvation to the current state of Jordanelle...nothing left but giant chubosaurs. Then the walleyes and smallies began to stunt. BUT, then someone introduced perch. Their population exploded...providing a super food source for the walleyes and smallies...and both grew and prospered...along with the perch.
Let's look at Deer Creek. For decades it was full of perch, had lots of healthy largemouths, plenty of big walleyes...and lots of crawdads. Smallmouths were transplanted from Flaming Gorge in the 80's. They grew fast and their population exploded. All of a sudden the crawdads were no longer to be found crawling over all the bottom areas. Perch went into a decline and today it is difficult to even find and catch any...because the stunting smallmouths eat all the baby perch before they can grow beyond fingerling size.
And, about the big chubs. They are their own worst enemies for recruitment of any spawning success. Big chubs become piscivorous and slurp up newly hatched fry of all species...perch, smallmouth, trout and even their own young. At the Deer Valley Ponds...near Park City...I used to catch lots of chubs for (dead) bait . For several years there were plenty of chubs of all sizes. I culled out the ones I liked best for size. Then, within a year or two, there were nothing but a few big chubs. And after they spawned I made minnow runs to try to capture some smaller ones. No good. The ponds were boiling with big chubs assassinating inch long baby chubs. When I returned a couple of months later there were again only the big chubs. No young at all.
Bottom line? Although each species has traits that remain similar regardless of habitat, each lake develops its own unique ecological system. And because Utah waters are mostly dammed impoundments...not natural lakes...they are subject to great water fluctuations and even being totally drained in any given year. Tough for any species to establish and maintain a healthy growing population.
A lot of the problems, as we have discussed and mostly agreed upon, are the result of a fluctuating or scarce food supply. And when the primary food source suffers drastic setbacks it affects all the predators that rely upon that food source for survival.
The term "tipping point" has come up in previous discussions. When the population or abundance of a given food source (perch, chubs, crawdads, etc.) drops below the ability of the water to regenerate it everything goes into a downward tailspin. That is what happened at Deer Creek, Jordanelle, Fish Lake and other waters. I seem to recall that the chub population of Flaming Gorge went from nasty to nothing with a few years...as the smallie population grew. And we have seen it in various forms on Yuba several times during the 5 decades I have fished it and watched it.
We may disagree on reasons and remedies at times. But we can always agree that Utah still has some pretty good fishing...and good management. It is tough to manage the unmanageable. And with the nature of our waters and climate we simply have to be properly grateful for the good times and weather out the bad ones.
[/#0000FF]
[signature]