05-27-2016, 05:25 AM
[quote PBH]
It is very obvious that the problem with Jordanelle is perch. Just like every other lake they show up in, they cause problems. So, figure out a way to reduce their spawning capabilities and knock their population back. You do that, and your smb will thrive.
[/quote]
Sorry I missed the fun this afternoon but work was nuts. You guys covered a lot of ground so I might repeat some stuff already discussed.
1. So, Jordanelle would have been better without perch? Lets look at that first. As someone who fished Jordanelle during much of the +/- 10 year peak, I can tell you that it was quite a peak. You almost expected to break your personal best on every trip and anglers were coming from all over the country to fish it for smallies. During that time, the food that fueled this was perch. As I covered previously, the large Jordanelle smallies depend almost exclusively on perch. It was the same then as it is now. The perch biomass then was enormous as well. Could chubs have provided the same amount of biomass as quickly? I doubt it. If the chubs were that numerous during the first few years, we would have seen a negative effect in the rainbow trout there. Since I enjoy fishing for trout too, especially through the ice, I can attest the trout were (and are) healthy and fat throughout. So it is my opinion that the peak of Jordanelle would not have been as amazing if perch were not there.
The only place in Utah I hear that consistently produces smallies as large as what we enjoyed during the lake X heyday is Pineview. What is the forage at Pineview? Those nasty perch and crappie.
Perch as forage are similar to a love interest that is smoking hot but a little crazy. She/he can take you to great heights but there are issues that aren't always perfect afterwards.
2. So now lets examine the flip side. Your assertion is that chubs are a superior forage option. As I already stated, I don't believe the chubs would have been able to permit the smallies to reach the dizzying heights the perch did during the heyday. But would they have been better longer term? How suitable are chubs as a long term warmwater forage fish generally? Lets see if we can get some clues from other examples.
Chubs have been the target forage for warmwater species in Utah several times. Lets see what happened.
a) The first example I know of is Utah lake. It used to be full of chubs. Then warmwater species were introduced. It didn't take long before they were functionally eliminated. Now the fish species there have their own food webs but chub forage is a distant memory. Even June suckers fared better.
b) Next example is Starvation. We already talked about that, but same deal. They provided forage for a while but eventually became extremely rare, with negative consequences to the fishery until the unmentionable species was introduced.
c) Flaming Gorge. This one is notable because it was smallies only but same thing. Lakers don't extirpate chubs. They coexisted with Lakers in Fish lake for decades. There were lots of chubs at FG until the smallies were stocked and then poof, gone.
d) We have already talked about what perch do to chub populations at Jordanelle, Fish Lake, Deer Creek, Rockport, Echo, and others. If perch are put in a lake, you won't have chubs there 20 years later.
It seems to me that chubs aren't a good choice as a warmwater forage either because they simply cannot compete. They get eaten up.
Would it have been different in Jordanelle? The absence of crayfish would make me highly skeptical. Currently, smallies there key on minnows as food because it is most profitable to do so and there aren't very many crayfish or other morsels in the rocks. (fishing hint for lake X, do not pound the rocks for smallies like you would elsewhere. Fish the shallow grasses, weeds, and stickups) This would have been the same whether the forage was perch or chubs. Thus, the same result would have eventually occurred with the chubs as we see now. The young of year eaten up and old relict chubs showing up, reminding us of the past.
What I think would have happened if perch never showed up is that the peak of smallies would not have been as amazing as it was, the peak would have lasted longer (so a positive there) but by now we would still be where we are at right now with stunted smallies and growth issues, Cliff blaming the DWR and bass harvest, and the rest of us having the exact discussion we are having now.
IMO, neither perch or chubs (or other forage for that matter) are the perfect solution for every situation, they do have their good and bad aspects, and they both make our fisheries managers earn their money.
Finally, W&B: No crawdads in OC? No way. My FIL and I dined on them one year. Large ones too. Lots of dads in the OC.
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It is very obvious that the problem with Jordanelle is perch. Just like every other lake they show up in, they cause problems. So, figure out a way to reduce their spawning capabilities and knock their population back. You do that, and your smb will thrive.
[/quote]
Sorry I missed the fun this afternoon but work was nuts. You guys covered a lot of ground so I might repeat some stuff already discussed.
1. So, Jordanelle would have been better without perch? Lets look at that first. As someone who fished Jordanelle during much of the +/- 10 year peak, I can tell you that it was quite a peak. You almost expected to break your personal best on every trip and anglers were coming from all over the country to fish it for smallies. During that time, the food that fueled this was perch. As I covered previously, the large Jordanelle smallies depend almost exclusively on perch. It was the same then as it is now. The perch biomass then was enormous as well. Could chubs have provided the same amount of biomass as quickly? I doubt it. If the chubs were that numerous during the first few years, we would have seen a negative effect in the rainbow trout there. Since I enjoy fishing for trout too, especially through the ice, I can attest the trout were (and are) healthy and fat throughout. So it is my opinion that the peak of Jordanelle would not have been as amazing if perch were not there.
The only place in Utah I hear that consistently produces smallies as large as what we enjoyed during the lake X heyday is Pineview. What is the forage at Pineview? Those nasty perch and crappie.
Perch as forage are similar to a love interest that is smoking hot but a little crazy. She/he can take you to great heights but there are issues that aren't always perfect afterwards.
2. So now lets examine the flip side. Your assertion is that chubs are a superior forage option. As I already stated, I don't believe the chubs would have been able to permit the smallies to reach the dizzying heights the perch did during the heyday. But would they have been better longer term? How suitable are chubs as a long term warmwater forage fish generally? Lets see if we can get some clues from other examples.
Chubs have been the target forage for warmwater species in Utah several times. Lets see what happened.
a) The first example I know of is Utah lake. It used to be full of chubs. Then warmwater species were introduced. It didn't take long before they were functionally eliminated. Now the fish species there have their own food webs but chub forage is a distant memory. Even June suckers fared better.
b) Next example is Starvation. We already talked about that, but same deal. They provided forage for a while but eventually became extremely rare, with negative consequences to the fishery until the unmentionable species was introduced.
c) Flaming Gorge. This one is notable because it was smallies only but same thing. Lakers don't extirpate chubs. They coexisted with Lakers in Fish lake for decades. There were lots of chubs at FG until the smallies were stocked and then poof, gone.
d) We have already talked about what perch do to chub populations at Jordanelle, Fish Lake, Deer Creek, Rockport, Echo, and others. If perch are put in a lake, you won't have chubs there 20 years later.
It seems to me that chubs aren't a good choice as a warmwater forage either because they simply cannot compete. They get eaten up.
Would it have been different in Jordanelle? The absence of crayfish would make me highly skeptical. Currently, smallies there key on minnows as food because it is most profitable to do so and there aren't very many crayfish or other morsels in the rocks. (fishing hint for lake X, do not pound the rocks for smallies like you would elsewhere. Fish the shallow grasses, weeds, and stickups) This would have been the same whether the forage was perch or chubs. Thus, the same result would have eventually occurred with the chubs as we see now. The young of year eaten up and old relict chubs showing up, reminding us of the past.
What I think would have happened if perch never showed up is that the peak of smallies would not have been as amazing as it was, the peak would have lasted longer (so a positive there) but by now we would still be where we are at right now with stunted smallies and growth issues, Cliff blaming the DWR and bass harvest, and the rest of us having the exact discussion we are having now.
IMO, neither perch or chubs (or other forage for that matter) are the perfect solution for every situation, they do have their good and bad aspects, and they both make our fisheries managers earn their money.
Finally, W&B: No crawdads in OC? No way. My FIL and I dined on them one year. Large ones too. Lots of dads in the OC.
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