05-27-2016, 06:37 PM
[quote wormandbobber]
1) I would totally disagree with the idea that Pineview is the only smallmouth fishery that has consistently produced smallies as large as what we enjoyed at Jordanelle. I would contend that Newcastle has been doing it for a longer period of time than what Jordanelle ever did...and, Minersville has done it prior to the last draining of the reservoir and since. I would also say that places like Upper Enterprise Reservoir, Piute, and Otter Creek have all pumped out big smallies consistently over the past couple decades.
[/quote]
I have never fished at Newcastle, so you may be right about that. A hyperabundant source of food for a period would make it possible. As for the rest, Upper Enterprise, pffft. Used to fish that a bit and no comparison. Minersville, not even close when I lived in sin city and fished it then. while I've enjoyed your pics of the smallies taken by gillnetting there more recently, again not what we used to get out of the X. OC, not that Ive seen. Piute, no experience there, but with the dismal water situation and drawdowns there, I highly doubt it. Minersville and OC are fine smallie fisheries, but it is easy to forget how amazing lake X was during its heyday and that is what we are talking about here.
[quote wormandbobber]
2) Crawdads were not even in the Sevier River drainage until about 5-10 years ago. They did NOT even exist in Otter Creek and Piute. Yet, smallmouth bass were growing to trophy sizes without them utilizing chubs as their main forage.
[/quote]
The trip I referenced was on Labor day of 2000. We caught dads where we were shore fishing at the edge of that round hill just to the left of the state park campground. We even ate some. This is not a story from a friend of a friend of a friend, but something my family and I experienced with our own eyes. Whereas crayfish are fairly distinctive morphologically, and I do feel qualified with my animal biology degree to make that call, I can only conclude that they were crayfish and you are mistaken. Sorry.
[quote wormandbobber]
Finally, I will repeat the FACT that smallmouth have NEVER eliminated chubs when they are the top predator. Again, at Flaming Gorge, the only way chubs were eliminated was with the help of lake trout. Also, Fish Lake has a very extensive amount of millfoil that allows for great fry habitat and allowed for young of year chubs to escape lake trout predation.
[/quote]
So you are saying that FG is devoid of inshore refugia for young chubs to escape lake trout? Nonsense. When there were lots of chubs there, they would swarm in the shallows and we would catch them with worms from shore casting out a short distance. Well away from where large lake trout would be and fairly safe from predators. In addition, during the time in question, there was still a fair amount of flooded brush they could hang in. However, when the smallies were planted, those sites became far more hazardous. Sure, trout ate some, but there are brown trout and others eating chubs in all of our examples. And the FG chubs are now gone.
Sorry, but the evidence continues to tell me that chubs are very inadequate as a long term forage option for consistently sustaining warmwater species, including smallies.
One last thing that I didn't bring up last night. Back 10-11 years ago when you and your brother were having a very similar discussion with me about the same thing, one of you brought up that perch were bad because they were predaceous and would eventually eat all the bass fry to ill effect. There is no argument that they are indeed predaceous and do eat everything that doesn't eat them. Now, lets fast forward to today. 11 years ago, there was an astronomical number of perch in the X and smallie numbers were what we thought was decent but compared to now, low. However, about 60-65% of all fish I caught in that period was over the 12 inch slot and we were getting frequent trophies. A few years later, the perch crashed. What happened right after? The smallie population skyrocketed. While Cliff and others (me too) were dislocating our shoulders patting ourselves on our back for how amazing we were as anglers with our enormous fish counts, it should have been obvious that the smallie population was growing too fast for the existing forage. We know what happened next, stuntsville. So it seems likely that a large perch population inhibits the smallie population. But is that good or bad? In hindsight it is good. No stunting and a population that can have sustained growth.
Since chubs are infinitely less predaceous, compared to perch, I can't help but wonder if the perch were absent, if the smallie population would have exploded sooner at Jordanelle, and we would have been in a stunting situation sooner than we did. We certainly know that angler harvest wouldn't have kept the small smallies in check as too many folks were believing Cliffs rants about the evils of keeping bass.
[signature]
1) I would totally disagree with the idea that Pineview is the only smallmouth fishery that has consistently produced smallies as large as what we enjoyed at Jordanelle. I would contend that Newcastle has been doing it for a longer period of time than what Jordanelle ever did...and, Minersville has done it prior to the last draining of the reservoir and since. I would also say that places like Upper Enterprise Reservoir, Piute, and Otter Creek have all pumped out big smallies consistently over the past couple decades.
[/quote]
I have never fished at Newcastle, so you may be right about that. A hyperabundant source of food for a period would make it possible. As for the rest, Upper Enterprise, pffft. Used to fish that a bit and no comparison. Minersville, not even close when I lived in sin city and fished it then. while I've enjoyed your pics of the smallies taken by gillnetting there more recently, again not what we used to get out of the X. OC, not that Ive seen. Piute, no experience there, but with the dismal water situation and drawdowns there, I highly doubt it. Minersville and OC are fine smallie fisheries, but it is easy to forget how amazing lake X was during its heyday and that is what we are talking about here.
[quote wormandbobber]
2) Crawdads were not even in the Sevier River drainage until about 5-10 years ago. They did NOT even exist in Otter Creek and Piute. Yet, smallmouth bass were growing to trophy sizes without them utilizing chubs as their main forage.
[/quote]
The trip I referenced was on Labor day of 2000. We caught dads where we were shore fishing at the edge of that round hill just to the left of the state park campground. We even ate some. This is not a story from a friend of a friend of a friend, but something my family and I experienced with our own eyes. Whereas crayfish are fairly distinctive morphologically, and I do feel qualified with my animal biology degree to make that call, I can only conclude that they were crayfish and you are mistaken. Sorry.
[quote wormandbobber]
Finally, I will repeat the FACT that smallmouth have NEVER eliminated chubs when they are the top predator. Again, at Flaming Gorge, the only way chubs were eliminated was with the help of lake trout. Also, Fish Lake has a very extensive amount of millfoil that allows for great fry habitat and allowed for young of year chubs to escape lake trout predation.
[/quote]
So you are saying that FG is devoid of inshore refugia for young chubs to escape lake trout? Nonsense. When there were lots of chubs there, they would swarm in the shallows and we would catch them with worms from shore casting out a short distance. Well away from where large lake trout would be and fairly safe from predators. In addition, during the time in question, there was still a fair amount of flooded brush they could hang in. However, when the smallies were planted, those sites became far more hazardous. Sure, trout ate some, but there are brown trout and others eating chubs in all of our examples. And the FG chubs are now gone.
Sorry, but the evidence continues to tell me that chubs are very inadequate as a long term forage option for consistently sustaining warmwater species, including smallies.
One last thing that I didn't bring up last night. Back 10-11 years ago when you and your brother were having a very similar discussion with me about the same thing, one of you brought up that perch were bad because they were predaceous and would eventually eat all the bass fry to ill effect. There is no argument that they are indeed predaceous and do eat everything that doesn't eat them. Now, lets fast forward to today. 11 years ago, there was an astronomical number of perch in the X and smallie numbers were what we thought was decent but compared to now, low. However, about 60-65% of all fish I caught in that period was over the 12 inch slot and we were getting frequent trophies. A few years later, the perch crashed. What happened right after? The smallie population skyrocketed. While Cliff and others (me too) were dislocating our shoulders patting ourselves on our back for how amazing we were as anglers with our enormous fish counts, it should have been obvious that the smallie population was growing too fast for the existing forage. We know what happened next, stuntsville. So it seems likely that a large perch population inhibits the smallie population. But is that good or bad? In hindsight it is good. No stunting and a population that can have sustained growth.
Since chubs are infinitely less predaceous, compared to perch, I can't help but wonder if the perch were absent, if the smallie population would have exploded sooner at Jordanelle, and we would have been in a stunting situation sooner than we did. We certainly know that angler harvest wouldn't have kept the small smallies in check as too many folks were believing Cliffs rants about the evils of keeping bass.
[signature]