Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers

[FishingLunatic]

"Utah leaderships' anti-public lands stance may cost state $50 million annually".

http://www.hatchmag.com/articles/patagon...ve/7714319
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[Stickhorse]

What happened to " this will be my last post about politic's"( at least for a long time)? I'm gray haired, sore knee'd and overweight but I'm hoping to live for a long time. Hoping it's longer than your "long time".
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[wyoguy]

I'm gray haired, sore knee'd and overweight but I'm hoping to live for a long time. .[/quote]

Me too, and because of that I think politicains should leave public land alone. In my state they are trying to sell state land to private concerns, once that starts sportsmen and women will be left out in the cold. Chavez will do the same if we don't stand up and say something! It's not a Democrat or Republican thing, it's about where we will hunt , fish and camp.
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[FishingLunatic]

I was referring to debating anyone on here about politics. I'm still going to post current events going on around the world, especially Utah, including ones about politics. I also meant that I will respond to political posts that I know are blantant lies or incorrect but that I won't start politic debates. Also, this topic is political but I left the political part out of it by not saying party's.
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[buckhunterhart]

$50 million potential lose divided by 3 million (roughly) Utah residents...I think I am fine with losing $17.00 in return for keeping a couple million acres of land free for any and all public use.

And let's be honest, I was never going to see any of that $50 million anyway. []
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[FatBiker]

Sorry, but I disagree. The worst thing that could happen is Utah government getting possession of the federal land. It would quickly be sold or given away. Even if they kept it, it wouldn't be maintained. Shucks, they couldn't/wouldn't fix the fish cleaning station at Willard Bays south marina. Been broke for a year and is still broke today. Rob Bishop is behind this movement and Bobble head Bob received 90% of his campaign financing from outside interests primarily oil and gas companies. I wouldn't trust that tub of lard as far as I could throw him. Like my daddy always said, "follow the money".


Larry
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[FatBiker]

This is a public forum and fishing lunatic has every right to post to it as long as he follows the rules. If you don't want to see his posts, perhaps you shouldn't open them.
This gray haired, sore kneed, but not overweight guy enjoys his perspective on life.


Larry
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[Bovineowner]

I say good riddance! I am so sick of liberal tree huggers taking their ball and running home to momma when they don't get their way! Don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out! I applaud Bishop and Chavez for trying to keep Washington DC Mismanagement away.

I know my opinion is very unpopular here and its not meant to start another scuffle. I hope when we all have the chance to get together in the spring, I may be able to show you with your own eyes, how poorly our federal lands are managed.
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[Jmorfish]

Bovineowner -- Glad you're out there and speaking your piece very well....I, too support Chavez and Bishop, and am grateful they are doing their job, in trying to lessen the hold the Feds have on us, especially here in Utah.....I've never bought anything from Patagonia, never had any need for their 'little rich boy' items....so if they go? if they all go? K-marts have left, Shopkos have left, business's come and they go.....something or someone else eventually takes their place.....Salt Lake has had a great run with the Outdoor group....let someone else deal with their cry-baby liberal demands....
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[FishingLunatic]

Part of my point in bringing this up is to show Bishop and Chaffetz hypocrisy. Every time there is a few thousand dollars worth of oil, gas, or coal somewhere, they're both crying. If there was 50 million or more dollars of oil, gas, or coal somewhere they'd cry so much that they could fill up Utah Lake this year. Beyond the economic losses described in this article, there's evidence that public lands benefit surrounding area economies. Our State government didn't open some of our most popular public lands back in 2012 when the federal government shut down because of their "good hearts". They did it because the surrounding areas literally weren't making any money. I'm tired of people like Chaffetz, Herbert, Bishop,etc. trying to tell me all of these "economic arguments" and then ignoring the economic arguments like these and countless others that I could present you all.

Part of the point of posting this article was about looking at the bigger picture. A couple of you have brought up stuff like well that's not much money per person or that you don't care because you don't buy stuff from Patagonia. Those are irrelevant and insignificant points. First off, no the money isn't evenly distributed on a per person basis based on population. Secondly, you could make that per person based on population argument with literally any economic situation; it's frankly stupid. Third, this isn't about if you personally buy Patagonia gear or not...I don't. This is about overall state benefits(in this case loss state economic benefits) and even how the world views Utah. Less people are going to go on vacations/etc. in Utah when they know Utah's Leadership stance on public lands or hear about how lots of our public lands either get sold off or degraded if Chaffetz and Bishop get their way. Fourth, this is also about hypocrisy like I talked about before. I don't want to hear Chaffetz and Bishop "economic reasons" we should do this and that when they ignore the actually more and stronger economic evidence that I can provide them. I challenge some one you who use economic reasons to defend your oppositions for the way public lands are currently managed to quit dismissing or treating economic evidence contrary to what you want to believe as garbage.
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[FishingLunatic]

I look forward to spring time as well Bovine. In the meanwhile, I would like your HONEST opinion about some things.

1. It's clear you don't think federal management is perfect but do you really think the states actually do a better job managing public lands? If so, what do you like about their management(don't tell me what you don't like about federal management...tell me about a specific state park or two in Utah or some other Utah public land and what you like about how they manage it).

2. If you really think state management of public lands is currently better than federal management, do you think that the state could maintain their "higher standard or quality" of management if they theoretically inherited all of the federal public lands?

From my personal perspective I'll tell you this related to both questions. I have yet to land a federal job(I don't really care who I work for, it's more about what the job is). That being said, I won't go into details here but I have worked state jobs. I will tell you from an insider perspective that with all the "complaining", they hear, you sure wouldn't think that our state is doing a better job managing lands. It's actually kind of how depressed and burned out a lot of state employees are because of public dissatisfaction. A lot of management issues people have with federal public lands have to do with stupid things people do. For instance I've heard you mention fires on federal lands before...most fires occurring on public lands whether they are state or federally managed are human caused. It's not a case of poor state or federal management...it's a case of someone being an idiot and doing something like throwing a lit cigarette onto dry grass on a hot summer day.

The majority of management issues people have with federal lands also has to do with money. My insider perspective has let me learn that the states have less money to work with. There's a reason why a few years ago fishing license prices went up. There's a reason why this year our state has actually used up its budget for snow plowing and removal. Both state and federal government run primarily on taxes; a lot of people don't like high taxes. So our low tax rates aren't helping either state or federal management at all but the feds are much stronger financially than the states. Federal management has financial issues, but their funding is strong enough where they can at least manage their land even if it's not perfect despite having to pay employees and other related expenses. The states can't afford to maintain or manage all of our federal lands in addition to paying the state employees and all other related expenses. When they can't, they get sold.

This is random but for any of you that hunt besides fish and participate in the dedicated hunters program with the DNR, I suggest you ask the project leaders perspective and opinion on state vs. federal management of public lands.
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[FishingLunatic]

Lol if you use your "businesses come and go" attitude about it then why can't I just say well lets let these oil, gas, mining, logging, and other extracting industries go and and be replaced by renewable job sources such as solar? By the way, solar provides more employment throughout the United States than oil, gas, coil and mining combined despite some people like Trump, Chaffetz, and Bishop being stuck in the past. In all serious, I hope you see how silly of an argument that is in the first place and also realize that unlike Shopko's and Kmart's, this wasn't a business residing in Utah. Outdoor retailers like Patagonia travel to certain cities to host shows. So no, this isn't a business like Shopko and Kmart that was residing in Utah and could be replaced. We've lost them and their are no replacements...in fact, we're likely going to lose other outdoor retailers and have no replacements and lose even more state money.

"let someone else deal with their cry-baby liberal demands...."

I hope you realize that people like you make things like public lands political. Caring about public lands shouldn't be related to whether someone is a liberal or republican. Looking past that, don't talk about life or other topics in general...I would like a itemized or numbered list of "cry-baby liberal demands" specifically regarding public lands.
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[Bovineowner]

For a fella who doesn't want to argue, you sure like too

I have dealt with federal and state land management for 35plus years. As a sportsman, and a rancher, I have dealt with both bureaucracies. While the state of Utah is not perfect, at least the management is LOCAL and not in the control of an agency 2000 miles away and dictated largely on a political agenda and not the health or benefit of the land managed. In my experience, Utah state lands are managed better. I recently spent 11 days hunting and camping on 16 sections of connected state land. 16 square miles of healthy range land where cattle graze and wildlife thrive. Where wood cutting is encouraged instead of banned so that lightning can scorch the earth. Where if a person has a question or a suggestion he/she can contact Richfield Utah instead of the Dept of Interior.

Lets visit this spring. Lets look at the range land, the wildlife, the mustangs, the sage grouse, the off- roading, the cattle, and a myriad of other issues. Lets learn from each others experiences and perspectives. I will wager we find much, much more common ground than we may think. I will kindly retire from our healthy debate now, as I have more calves and lambs coming and cows to feed. Enjoy your day
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[FatBiker]

Bovineowner, there's a fish cleaning station at Willard Bay's south marina that has been broken for at least 18 months. Willard Bay is one else of the state's most popular state parks. Despite the efforts of many people on this site we have not been able to get any action on this issue. Utah collects $10 from everyone who drives through the gate yet won't put any money into maintaining the facilities. I've personally made three trips to SLC on this issue and the only answer I can get is, "the parts on order." This is just one small example of state mismanagement. Range management might be a different issue, but as a fisherman, I'm opposed to the state taking control of federal lands, any federal lands. I've got a daughter who lives in NYC. BLM and forest service land belongs as much to her as you and I. If federal land managers aren't responsive to your needs we have elected officials to hold them responsible. If the elected officials aren't doing their job, fire them. Rob Bishop is my Congressman. I've made hundreds of calls, sent letters and emails to his office on matters that concern me. Not once, have I received an acknowledgment from his office. Yes, every two years I do my best to fire him.


Larry
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[Jmorfish]

The Outdoor Retailers Mart is a business, just like Ringling Bros. or Cirque Circus coming to Utah...different presentations, different product, but still a business....and if cry babies like Patagonia leave for whatever reason, get kicked out, or fail as a business, someone else will fill their spot.....
Supply and Demand
Got a good product? The market will find you
Simple and good business knowledge.... Patagonia is not essential - they can be replaced. Someone else wants to join them? So be it. If they all go? Then like I said before, it was just another business, and business's come and go..They used Utah long enough, and got their $ worth....Patagonia made this a political issue..These are Your Friends, "People like You"...to quote your words..Not me..
By the way, I'll talk about life or other topics in general if I'd like....Read your own last sentence of every entry again and chew on your own words for awhile.....You are the kind of person who enjoys getting in the last jab or statement, so go ahead - but I'll be out fishing...Guluk...
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[FishingLunatic]

You have once again missed the point entirely. Patagonia makes money off of Utah just like other businesses...so what? I'm not talking about the money that they make. They bring over $50 million to the state of Utah annually...that isn't what they're making, that's what they're bringing to the state. No there isn't a replacement for outdoor retailers, in fact other outdoor retailers are talking about leaving us as well. The fact that you're arguing that a loss of $50 million to the state isn't bad is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Even Herbert realizes that this is bad for the state. Of course he's lying about how much he and our state officials care about our lands but the point is he's desperately trying to get Patagonia to come back and to stop other outdoor retailers from leaving. http://www.ksl.com/?sid=43137206&nid=148

"By the way, I'll talk about life or other topics in general if I'd like....Read your own last sentence of every entry again and chew on your own words for awhile.....You are the kind of person who enjoys getting in the last jab or statement, so go ahead - but I'll be out fishing...Guluk..."

Number one, what are you talking about chew on my own words for a while? Of course I like getting the last statement in. Anyone who tells you they don't is a liar. I especially don't let anyone get the last statement in when it's either a complete lie or has ridiculous fallacy and reasoning. You were obviously to lazy to write me that list I asked for.

I'll be out there fishing as well and serving you and other recreationists in the future.
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[Bovineowner]

[quote FatBiker]Bovineowner, there's a fish cleaning station at Willard Bay's south marina that has been broken for at least 18 months. Willard Bay is one else of the state's most popular state parks. Despite the efforts of many people on this site we have not been able to get any action on this issue. Utah collects $10 from everyone who drives through the gate yet won't put any money into maintaining the facilities. I've personally made three trips to SLC on this issue and the only answer I can get is, "the parts on order." This is just one small example of state mismanagement. Range management might be a different issue, but as a fisherman, I'm opposed to the state taking control of federal lands, any federal lands. I've got a daughter who lives in NYC. BLM and forest service land belongs as much to her as you and I. If federal land managers aren't responsive to your needs we have elected officials to hold them responsible. If the elected officials aren't doing their job, fire them. Rob Bishop is my Congressman. I've made hundreds of calls, sent letters and emails to his office on matters that concern me. Not once, have I received an acknowledgment from his office. Yes, every two years I do my best to fire him.


Larry[/quote]

Larry, I sure appreciate the frustration you feel over a broken fish cleaning station. Can you imagine if your livelihood and the ability to feed your family hinged on getting that fixed? The fish cleaning station in a nuisance and is surely inconvenient, but will you miss a house payment if they don't fix it? But that is exactly like the problems ranchers face every year from the United States Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management. Unlike the south marina at Willard Bay, I own the right to graze the federal land that my permit is on. NO ONE ELSE CAN GRAZE IT BECAUSE I OWN THAT RIGHT. And our family has owned that right since the inception of the Taylor Grazing Act in the late 1930's. But instead of it being an inconvenience when a government agency refuses to hold up their end of the bargain, it becomes a threat to my livelihood. Here is just one tiny example of that.....
The BLM has done range studies to determine the carrying capacity of each area they manage. They figure out how many deer and other game animals, how many non-game critters, how many cattle or sheep and how many wild horses each area can handle WITHOUT DAMAGING THE RANGELAND. This is done using very scientific methods including "clip and weigh" as well as historical data, long range weather forecasts, ect. The BLM has determined that our area has sufficient rangeland to handle 450 head of wild horses. And their own count puts the wild horse numbers at over 800! Almost double what they KNOW the habitat can handle. Can you imagine how much trouble I would be in if I turned out twice the amount of cattle the grazing right I OWN states I can? And yet when the horses damage the grass and overwhelm the meager water sources of our desert landscape, the BLM does nothing! They are afraid of being sued by "friends of horses groups" who have no idea how damaging too many horses are on the grass and water resources but think how pretty wild horses are on the open lands of the American west. I have watched horses die of thirst and starvation. I have called BLM managers and reported the suffering multiple times only to be ignored or brushed off as clueless. I love wild horses! And to see them suffer makes my blood boil and a black rage settle upon my attitude. Even though those horses are competing directly with my livestock, I would never allow them to suffer like the Federal government land managers do!!!! And when they finally get off their butts and decide to do something, guess what they try to do first? They TRY TO CUT MY CATTLE NUMBERS BECAUSE THAT IS EASIER THAN LITIGATION FROM "SAVE THE MUSTANGS" OR THE SIERRA CLUB! Suddenly that broken fish cleaning station looks kind of silly to me! I have worked my entire life to be a great steward of the land I own and the land I am permitted to graze on federal land. NONE OF THAT COUNTS TO MOST BLM AND FOREST SERVICE MANAGERS! They are sent out into their districts with a federal agenda that simply doesn't make sense. It's based on political decisions and not on sound science or historical data. It's based on fear of litigation. And it's based on whatever textbook some rookie ranger learned from at Delaware State! This is one example my friend! And it happens over and over again to myself and countless other ranchers throughout the west! When I lease a private pasture, I have total control of the amount of cattle in can graze there, how to improve water to benefit the range and the animals, how much access the public gets and a bunch of other things which makes it worth paying $25 per head per month. When I pay the BLM my fee of $1.85 per head per month I get nothing like that. I get campfires left unattended and human waste in streams. I get gates left open and fences cut. I get cattle chased by 4 wheelers and even shot with arrows (Happened twice so far in my lifetime). I get mismanagement from someone who cares not for me or the land they manage. I get red tape and stupidity and bureaucracy from my local ranger district up through the Dept of the Interior. I get heartache and worry over how my kids will continue in the tradition and livelihood I treasure like the air I breathe. It's much more than being irritated I cannot clean my fish! Should the state of Utah fix that station? ABSOLUTELY!!! Is the state of Utah perfect at managing its own lands? NOPE! But when I have a problem on the state trust lands I lease, I pickup the phone and call Richfield Utah. I talk to a person who knows the range, knows my family, and truly cares for the land they manage. I do not always get exactly what I'd like, but I get respect and have a great working relationship with the folks who have stewardship over the areas I lease. It's night and day different from dealing with the federal government. And that is just one small example folks.

Please let me also clear up something about prices when running cattle on government land versus private land. Many of you will say that $1.85 is totally unfair to pay per cow per month when it costs $25+ to graze the same cow on private land. THEY ARE 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS! First of all, go re-read what ranchers put up with on public land. Compare that to the almost total control I have on private. And second, remember I own the right to graze that government land. Many of you own your homes. Its paid for and it's yours right? But every year you still pay property taxes right? You no longer have a monthly house payment but you do owe taxes and will for as long as you live. I own my grazing right exactly like you own your home. The $1.85 per head per month FEE is just like paying taxes on the home you own. EXACTLY!!! So please don't come back at me with how unfair that $1.85 is because it will only prove how little you know about the subject. Not talking to you Fatbiker specifically, but to others who may jump on me.

Lastly, Your Daughter in NYC does have the right to use public land. She doesn't own it anymore than you or I own it. We can't sell it or build a cabin anywhere we'd like. We have very specific rules to follow on all public land from where we can legally shoot, off-road, camp, graze, cut firewood, ect. And those rules only increase and get more restrictive as we designate land monuments or parks. I too contact my Congressmen and Senators often. I ask them to protect my livelihood and the future for my kids. I ask them to stand up for private property rights, for water rights and for grazing rights. I ask them to trim back the over reach and mismanagement that seems to ooze from the cesspool that is Washington DC. I vote every election too.

I look forward to meeting you Fatbiker. I want the privilege of shaking your hand and telling you thanks for your service to our country! I want to associate with a guy who has a wonderful heart for complete strangers in need, like the Lauti's! I want to spend a day looking at God's handiwork of creation where I am lucky enough to live and work. I wish you all well in your lives, in catching fish, in retirement and with your family. I hope this long epistle might give ya just a glimpse into my small world of being a rancher. Have a fine evening sir!

Darrell (Really my name and not a bad Bob Newhart show reference)
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[FatBiker]

Darrell, I might take you up on your invitation this spring. I haven't rode my bike around the Great Salt Lake in a few years. Been thinking this spring would be a good time. Two years ago I went in early November so I'm looking at the end of April or first part of May this time. Does the body good to get out of the city, breathe fresh air and be by myself for a few days. If I go, I'll be coming back on the Pony Express trail. Should put me right in your neck of the woods. Shucks, maybe you'd let me spend a night in your barn. Another month or so, I should have dates and details figured out.



Larry
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[Bovineowner]

Larry,
You will be welcome at my home anytime you need a floor or couch to crash on! I will send ya a PM with my cell number. Looking forward to putting a face with the name. I better get my XR running and we can spend a few days wandering around the desert

Darrell
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[Jmorfish]

Fools usually think they are Very Smart....You Sir, are Very Smart.....Guluk...and goodbye....don't waste my time or yours anymore....
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