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[unsure] [font "Poor Richard"][size 4] [green]I[/green][green] wanted to see if a little bit of nail hardener would compromise the integrity of a knot. Making a surgeons knot I applied a small amount of nail hardener. Given sufficient time to dry I applied equal pressure from both ends. The line broke at the knot. This was repeated several times with the same results always breaking at the same point. I then repeated the test but didn't use any hardener. Surprise - the line broke also at the knot just like the other tests. Conclusion, the line is weakest at a given knot.[ ] I guess that I will have to use a pull scale to determine if the nail hardener altered the line's strength.[/green][/size][/font]
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Hey there Dryrod,
Also keep in mind that different knots retain the lines tensile strength better than others. Some knots only hold 75 to 85%, were as others hold 99 to 100%. Another thought is i'd bet JB Weld would work good on the knot. It wouldn't change the mono's composition chemically, thus not affecting it's strenght. Plus, when it dries, it's pretty hard. Just a thought though. [ ]
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What about SuperGlue/CrazyGlue? Will that weaken the line??
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[center][cool][/center][center][font "Poor Richard"][green][size 4]The trouble with super glue is that a little tiny tube is quite expensive and once opened it dries up too quickly. Was looking for something that I could coat the knot and tag ends so as not to get caught on the small eyelets of a fly rod.[/size][/green][/font][/center]
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Hey Dryrod,
You don't think JB Weld would work? It won't dry up like the Super Glue will as you were saying, and it's pretty strong stuff. PVC Cement might even work as well. It might bond to mono a little better than the JB Weld since it's designed for use on plastic. Just a thought. PVC Cement is considerably lighter in composition that JB Weld as well, so it would affect the natural action of the fly were as the weight of JB might. However, if you wanted to add a little quicker dive to a sinking fly, JB Weld would probably do the trick. It would be interesting to see how each one of those works.
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[cool][font "Poor Richard"][green][size 4]Hey there Tarpon4me - good idea. Have to give that PVC cement a try. I have a couple cans of that stuff. Not quite sure whether or not it will weaken the line for it cuts into the material to cause a bond. I guess it would be like welding metal.[/size][/green][/font]
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[center][font "Poor Richard"][green][size 3]Okay - tried using the PVC cement on my surgeon knot. Still broke off at the same place, right at the knot.[/size][/green][/font][/center]
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Mmmm, interesting. If you're using a surgeons knot, you must be tieing a lighter line onto a smaller one. Flyfishing perhaps? Mmmmm, have you tried an "Albright Special" knot? Check out this link, it shows you how to tie it:
[url "http://www.netknots.com/html/fishing_knots.html"]http://www.netknots.com/html/fishing_knots.html[/url]
Maybe a better knot would make a difference.
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[font "Poor Richard"][green][size 4]Sorry that isn't the answer. I definately know how to tie a surgeons knot having learned it in college when I majored in veterinarian science. My test involved two pieces of 12 lb test mono. The breaking point wasn't within the knot itself but right at the knot's end in every case. It broke at about a 15lb pull. I guess that I should be testing a piece of tippet and leader since I am looking to prevent the tag ends from catching on the rod's eyes. No big deal. I was just surprised that the line was breaking at the knot every time. By the way that is a good site for looking up knots. Will steal it from you to add onto JR's post on the FMB site.[/size][/green][/font]
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I wasn't challenging your not tying abilities, you've been doing it a heck of a lot longer than I. [sly] I was under the impression that it was breaking WITH IN the knot. With that said, I was suggesting a better knot. Different knots work better than others. Many knots don't retain the lines tensile strength, where as others do. I find it strange that the line is breaking right at the knot even still. I wonder why that is? Here's another idea. I don't know if you can do it, but can you use a leader sleeve instead of a knot? You can get them in a tiny size that wouldn't catch in the eye's of your rod. You'd just have to invest in a good pair of crimping pliers. Just a thought, I don't flyfish, so I don't know if you can do that or not.[cool][cool]
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[center][cool][font "Poor Richard"][green][size 4] I started this project out of boredom. Always looking for a better way of doing things. I guess the only way that I will know for sure is to do my test with a leader and tippet. I guess that if my 12lb line broke with a [/size][/green][/font][/center] [center][font "Poor Richard"][green][size 4] 15 lb pull I should be satisfied. More about that later. Oh I like using a surgeon's knot for the simple reason I can tie it without using magnifier. Us old dudes need all the help we can get.[][/size][/green][/font][/center]
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I tend to use polomer knots, I find the line usualy breaks but not always by the knot. the line breaks at its weekest point.
vary important to use new line stock when making thist test.
have you tried shoe goo?
this should not harden the line unless it has a chemical reaction.
remember plastic is plastic. and these epoxies are plastic and when in the liquid stage can weeken the chemical integrity of your line.
I remember back in high school some creep placed super glue on my seat and when I sat in it not only did I get a but burn (chemical burn) it ruened my only new geans I would receive for the year.
the cotton threads all broke at the hardened edge of the glue's peramiter and vary shortly left me with a gapeing hole in the shape of the glue leaving my pants worthless.
What I think you are looking for is a non hardning but holding substance.
I did a series of knot test on long leaders tieing my hooks with different knots and 4 foot leaders.
I put the hook on the chain link fence or a piece of wood and a stick through the eye of the loop end.
my findings were it did not matter which test line or type of knot if I used a quick snap pull. the knots broke 100 percent of the time.
if I used a slow pull I found that the polimer or the snell knot worked best in stenth. the line ususaly broke before the knot did and that includes the knot on the loop which is a veration of the polomer knot. I did find on heavier test lines that the polimer knot would untie under prolonged test, test that would equivilant the fight of a large salmon for half hour.
I am surprised there are not a number of other anglers who have done test on knot strenth.
as with any other test it helps to use different types and manufactures of line to get a real feal of confidence of which line and knots are best for particular anglers....
Fastinating Topic,,, Thanks...
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[cool][font "Poor Richard"][#008000][size 4]I wasn't trying to test the strength of a given knot. The point of the test was to determine what effect the different adhesives had on the line itself. That is by applying the different glueing agents to the tag ends, would it weaken the knot. It probably didn't matter what type of knot I used. I know that many adhesives are solvents in themselves and a little goes a long way. I guess we will need to hear from a resident chemical engineer for the final verdict.[/size][/#008000][/font]
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I actually have a book that has the actual percentage of the tensile strength each knot retains. I'm going to look for it today to eliminate some of the confusion. Knowing what type of knot to use with each different situation, I.E. type of fishing(trolling, bottom, attaching a steel leader to mono, attaching a light tippet to a fly line) and the pound test each knot works best for in each situation can seriously pick up your catch percentage. I'll see if I can't find it and get it on here. You'd be surprised though. The common knots that most people use only retain a max of 75% of the lines breaking strength. I know I always wondered why I got all my line back when i'd get snagged, it was because it was breaking at my knots. However, this isn't such a bad thing either. When you get snagged, 8 times out of 10 you're going to loose the rig anyways. Breaking at the knot saves you a whole lot of line. Imagine fishing in 50 to 60 foot of water and getting stuck on the bottom. Now, your line breaks just on the surface at the lines weakest point since you're using a high quality knot. Three 50+ foot break offs of line and you've got to respool your reel. That can get costly after a while. I'd rather loose just the rig and no line rather than the rig and 1/6 of my line. The trick is to use a knot that has a happy medium, I'd say about 90% retention. Most quality lines, like Ande or Berkely break at a few pounds over what test they are. For instance, say you're using 20 pound test Big Game. That line averages breaking at around 22-24 pounds. You use a knot like a "world's fair knot" which hold's around 90% of the tensile strength. At 90%, it will break right around the lines tensile strength, 20 pounds, maybe a little more. The moral of the story is you're not giving up strength, however, keeping the line on the reel because the knot will break just before the line would.
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know what ya mean, that is why my main line is 20% stronger than my lead line.
I have only had to replace my spool of line once due to loss. it was stripped away by a realy big fish and the weekest point was the knot on the spool... so I lost it all, temporaly, that is I got it all back the following year, I found my lure on a sunken island with all the line attached to it...
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[laugh] Dang dave, you should have framed that lure. That's crazy, finding your lure with all the line attached still.
I've been spooled a couple of times, once by a Mako shark, and i'm not shure what got me last time. I guessed it was a really big Wahoo. I spotted a school of tuna churning the water and free-dropped a rod in the wash that had a reel that was way too small. Hell, I didn't figure on hooking anything with it, I was basically just trying to tease something onto my stand up rods; but it didn't work out too well. It sucks watching all the line peel off the reel and there is nothing you can do about it. Half of you wants to cut the line to salvage it, the other half keeps hope that maybe you can turn him. People don't respect fishermen/women enough, we make alot of hard decisions under intense stress. [cool]
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[center][cool][font "Poor Richard"][#008000][size 4]Hey guys thanks for the feedback. I think that we had some good discussion here.Murphy's law always seems to come into play big time when you are fishing. Get snagged on one pole and you are sure to get a hit on the other. Likewise a knot tied in haste is bound to give on a good tug.[/size][/#008000][/font][/center]
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I think that your problem is that you are drying out the line.
A knot will clinch down on it's self and will cut the line on a under wrap
so instead of trying to stop the clinch down, try to soften the clinching with a something called Bag Balm it was made for a cow utters. They put this on so that the cows won't chap. There is all kind of use for this stuff. First aid, dry chap hand, and knot tying I guess. Put some on the knot before you clinch down it will removed the friction and allow the knot to seat.
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