Question about Willard catfish population and Walleye

[catfish-logic]

You know I was wondering.....

I was looking at the awesome catfish that TubeDude had caught from Willard Bay. I seen his pics from the 80s.

I was mad at the idea that the DWR would stock Gizzard Shad in Willard just to ruin a fine cat and walleye fishery.

But I was speculating something interesting.

Maybe the catfish had moved to other locations in Willard, you know because of the the Gizzard Shad, perhaps, because of the catfishes very acute sense of smell, that they have moved further from the shore.

The reason I came up with this is I always always always catch cats at Willard when I fish about over 50 yards from the shore, even further.

In fact it seems just about anywhere around Willard if you go that far you are sure to catch the cats if the temperature permits.

But this is my main test here, I bet there are some giant cats at Willard(and walleye) that are just no longer swimming close to the shore, perhaps they have moved far from shore to feed on the abundance of Gizzard Shad.

I know this sounds wishful but hey you never know, in fact the next time I got to Willard I plan on fishing very far off the bank.

Of course if this is true we can thank the DWR for thier fine introduction to Willard, the Gizzard Shad.

If the Gizzards have killed and lowered the fish populations we can always sarcasticaly thank the DWR for thier dedicated efforts at preserving out fisheries.[crazy]

Maybe this is a trick they played to get the kitties far from shore, catfish can smell Gizzards from a long ways away.

Well someone can tell me the bad news that far from shore you catch the same 'ol small kittes that are 50 yards off the bank.

catfish-logic
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[Flycasting]

There is no doubt that there are fewer large catfish in Willard. With that said, people still catch some nice ones in there every year right up next to the dyke or shore. I fish from my tube there quite often, and I haven't hooked into a monster from 100 yards out. I have caught a few 5-8lbr's from shore a few years ago.

I completely agree with you about the walleye. Prior to the shad, the walleye used to feed primarily on the crappie and bluegill up next to the dyke. I have heard stories from many friends and family (TubeDude included) where they would go out at dusk, throw a feathered jig, and nail a limit of eyes in an hour. With the introduction of the shad, the walleyes forage changed, and they followed it into the open water.

As far as your argument about the fishery being mismanaged, I would have to disagree. In my experience, the majority of people fish Willard for wipers these days. The wipers (fed by the shad) are healthy fish, and fun to catch. I'm sure a new Utah wiper record will be broken again this year.

There are still a lot of good Walleye in there, they are just tougher to find.

And there are still many many cats in there. Probably not the size there used to be (for whatever reason), but lots of good fish.

The DWR has a tough job... they are not going to make everyone happy.

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[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]I have fished Willard since the mid 70's and have watched the fish populations and general ecology change. I don't know if I know all the answers but I have some observations.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]First of all, it is not fair to accuse DWR of mismanaging the lake. You have no idea all of the failed experiements they tried to get a suitable forage species to take hold in that lake. They kept spending money for tons of minnow fry, dumping them in the lake and watching them disappear. They were trying to find something to feed the crappies, walleyes and cats. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]As Flycasting pointed out, until the gizzard shad took hold, the food chain was pretty much a closed cycle. Bluegills, green sunfish and small crappies fed the bigger fish...and of course young carp provided good forage for a couple or three months each year. Once walleyes and catfish got large enough, they fed on larger crappies and sunfish, and they really put on the size.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Until gizzard shad exploded and began vacuuming up all the zooplankton necessary to feed young crappies and sunfish, there was a tremendous fishery for the panfish. Since then the spiny ray tykes have had a tough time making a living. And, with wipers in the water, any crappies or sunfish that get big enough become food for wipers too. They get it from all sides.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]It used to be difficult to catch walleyes under 24". The limit used to be two over 20 inches and an evening's fishing would often produce ten to twenty fish...but only two keepers. The rest would be too large.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Same with catfish. The average size for channel cats used to be about what the larger ones run today...two to three pounds. On any serious cat trip, during the day, I could count on hanging at least a couple over 5 pounds, and got many up to ten pounds during daylight hours. After dark it was a rare night that there wasn't at least one fish over ten, and sometimes several between ten and fifteen. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]The smaller sizes today are a function of several factors. The biggie right now is that there were several years of lower water levels (drought) which made poor spawning for most of the species in the lake...especially the forage species. Cats also need rocks or cover in which to spawn. If the water does not go well up into the rocks, the cats cannot lay their eggs in protected areas and the carp slurp them up as fast as they are laid.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Cats and walleyes have both had to adapt to the new ecosystem of the lake. You can really see it with the walleyes. They used to be night raiders, along the shorelines, chasing crappies and sunfish. Now they hang at middepth, in the middle of the lake, and move with the schools of shad, just like the wipers and just like their Great Lakes ancestors. They are not getting as large and they are "lean and mean". They have to chase down the fast travelling shad and that means they expend more energy per calorie ingested.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Catfish are also becoming "sight feeders" and are regularly caught on lures being trolled fast for wipers. Many anglers who think they know catfish are suprised when they catch cats near the surface in deep water. Again, if the cats have to work harder for their groceries, there will not be as many big fat cats. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]There ARE some large catfish left in Willard, but not nearly as many proportionately as in the past. And, because there are more anglers fishing for cats, and keeping all they catch, there are fewer that reach five pounds and then grow even larger. Because a large cat is a trophy from Willard these days, everybody thinks they have to take them home to show off. That removes a potential biggun and impacts the gene pool for bigger fish.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I also have the theory that the gizzard shad are actually very beneficial to the BIG cats, and not good for the fishermen. Because of the vast numbers of shad in the lake, there is also a lot of natural mortality...for all the normal reasons. That means that on a daily basis, there are a bunch of dead shad fluttering down to the bottom. Wipers prefer live ones. So do walleyes. That leaves all that yummy dead shad for the catfish. And, since dead adult shad can be well over a foot long, the little ones can't eat them. But, the bigguns can, and if they are always full of abundant free chow, why should they bother with a wimpy worm or a small minnow or piece of carp meat? [/#0000ff]

[#0000ff]Fishing is always a matter of numbers of fish, available food, number of anglers, knowledge and luck. If you are in the right place at the right time, with the right offering, you can still catch a big cat. Probably not many, but still worth staying optimistic.[/#0000ff]
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[catfish-logic]

You got it right, I was mad because when I saw the photos, Im laughing because I was not considering the facts you and the other guy let me in on.

I find this lake strange its easier at Willard to catch channels than say Lake Havasu Arizona.

Of course Lake Havasu my step dad, mother and I would use chicken livers and anchovies.

We never really would use worms they were of such low quality in Arizona.

OK back to Willard, the lake is a blast to fish. I go tspoiled going to Utah Lake and Havasu.

Havasu can be quite a trick! But I lack experience as a cat angler.

What I have just read you guys set the record straight.

Im going to fish Willard far from shore. I mean far.

I'll let you know in the months ahead, when the weather warms what I catch.

I really want to learn how to catch wipers.

I got what you said about the big cats in how they can be finicky if there are plentiful dead shads at the bottom.

Well Ill have to use extra fish oil on my minnows. I have a gallon of menhaden and some other fresh water fish oil, I think herring.

Thanks for that info, I had nothing to be upset about but man those photos what nice fish!

I hope to try Utah Lake this year. But Willard is on my list.
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[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]I don't know whether you fish from a boat, a float tube or what, but if you are fishing "far from shore" there are more important things than just distance from the water's edge.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Most of the successful "catters" I know use sonar to help find the fish and then to keep fishing in the right "zones". You might not think it would be important, but there are some days when the fish are feeding in 8 feet of water, and other days when they are much deeper. Whenever they seem to have a preference, you will catch a lot more fish by keeping your baits in water of the right depth. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Water temperature, clarity, light conditions and food sources all play a role in where the cats are going to be at any given time. That can also change throughout the day. I have fished many days on Willard when the cats are shallow early and/or later, and move to deeper water when the sun gets higher. I have also seen them come right up onto the rocks, in bright sunshine, chasing shad fry. You just have to watch both the fish and your sonar.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]If you like to fish cats with lures, try fishing shallow shorelines after dark with a floating size 5 or 7 Rapala. Fish it like a popper...twitching and stopping...or by retrieving a few feet and then letting it float to the top. It is amazing how shallow the cats cruise after dark and how well they will hit lures. And, don't be surprised if you also hang a few wipers or wallies.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Keep an open mind and keep learning and experimenting. When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Oh yeah, forgot to comment on Havasu. I have fished it too. I lived in Arizona for a few years in between times in Utah. There are some giant flatheads in the Colorado River. Too bad you didn't get a shot at them. Down below Parker Dam they catch some bigguns.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Havasu can also be a terrible place for a young man to fish. Those poor girls on some of the boats can't afford clothing and it is really and distracting to have to see them getting sunburned.[/#0000ff]
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[Flycasting]

I look forward to hearing your reports. It would be nice to get a few big kitties this year.

[cool]
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[CROSSINEYES]

FOR BIG KITTYS GO BIG BAIT. THATS WHAT IVE ALWAYS DONE. LIKE A HALF WHITE BASS OR BLUE GILL. OR EVEN A 4INCH SQUARE PEACE OF CARP. THE LOCATION FROM MY DAYS ON IT TO NOW ARE COMPLETLEY DIFFERNT. DUDE KNOWS ABOUT THAT STUFF FOR HE FISHES IT FOR CATS STILL. I DONT. I HIT IT 1 TIME A YR FOR A WIPER FIGHT. OTHER THAN THAT I JUST DRIVE BY.
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[Flycasting]

I'm not sure you can use bluegill as bait anywhere legally (in Utah) can you??
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[CROSSINEYES]

GOOD QUESTION. LOL. AW THE GOOD OLD DAYS.[]
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[ice_sled]

Bluegill is considered a game fish. Too bad! Bluegill was my primary bait for big flatheads in the Bluegrass state. They are not legal bait in Utah, Dead or alive.
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[catfish-logic]

I did catch some small flatheads from the Colorado River.

Its just I did not have a boat. I caught lots of small channel cats from the river.

Wehn I lived in Yuma with my mom, I would use a red shiner minnow (not the redside minnow but the red shiner there is a difference)

And those little fiddlers would eat all the meat off the bones of the minnow! Urgh!

Anyways you can fish the Colorado from a boat or float to one of the few islands but my lack of a say, brains[].... well you get the idea. Back then in 1993 I just didnt have the idea. I probably could have landed bigger cats around those islands.


Anyways Im gonna fish the Colorado maybe this year Im not sure though.

But this time I want to go out to some islands I know where they are.

Most likely I want to try Mohave its near my mothers place she lives in Kingman, AZ respectively.

Lake Mohave has no Threadfin Shad so the poor stripped bass are mostly small.

There is an abundance of Asian Clams in Lake Mohave I read in a catfish book they like to eat those!

Anyways Im not going to Arizona on vacation until this fall and Im really serious about fishing Mohave more than the Colorado.

OK OK blah blah blah.

Good luck.
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[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Bluegills are not legal in any waters. Yellow perch and white bass in the designated waters only. Ciscos are about the only other gamefish allowed as bait in any other waters.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]It is interesting though. At one time we could use green sunfish as bait in Willard. I used to work along the dike to harvest a few and either use strips or whole dead green sunfish for the walleyes and cats. They really worked well.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]As has been mentioned, whole live bluegills are the favorite baits for big cats in many parts of the country. But then, many parts of the country do not have some of our restrictive bait laws. All for the protection of hatchery pets. Sheesh.[/#0000ff]
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