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The Glen Canyon institute has begun disseminating leaflets and presenting conferences which attempt to persuade coffers and lawmakers to consider a Lower Colorado River conservation plan called 'Lake Mead First' which requires emptying Lake Powell to it's minimum pool in effort to fill Lake Mead. The driving mantra behind 'Lake Mead First' is to have one full reservoir rather than two dwindling reservoirs. The accumulation of hydrological studies throughout the past decade presents demonstrable evidence which shows the amount of water being drawn from the Upper and Lower Colorado River basins exceeds the amount which is being deposited into them--more water is being taken than is being supplied. If this pattern continues, neither lake will be sufficient enough to be provide water or energy for the regions that they sustain. With this problem in mind, 'Lake Mead First' straight-facedly addresses this reality and proposes that Lake Powell's surplus water storage be deposited into Lake Mead in order raise it's level to full pool, leaving Glen Canyon Dam in tact and ready to store water once again (if ever snow-pack and rainfall inundation should permit). The favorable aspects that the Glen Canyon Institute notes is the very low cost of such a plan, which does not require the creation of any new facilities. Water loss will be prevented; being a sandstone basin, the floor of Lake Powell allows the loss of 300,000 - 400,000 cubic feet of water into the porous water table below, an amount that far-exceeds a full year of water allotment for the entire state of Nevada. This amount of water could be securely stored in Lake Mead. Aside from water seepage, having two reservoirs significantly increases the amount of evaporation since more water surface-area is exposed to the hot desert sun. As for recreation, Glen Canyons sunken wonders will once again be revealed--ready for interaction by visitors, and available for study. Natural monuments, land-bridges, lost Anasazi ruins, and deep winding slot canyons will be ready for both canyoneers and kayakers. As for fishing...the massive population of game fish will be concentrated into the low canyons and river. The average size of striper, largemouth, and smallmouth will grow immensely due to an over-abundance of available forage and steady water levels. For more information on Lake Mead First, visit the website of the Glen Canyon Institute, or google 'Lake Mead First Conservation'
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About all I can say to this plan is WOW! Makes a lot of sense but will really clobber fishermen and boaters who use Lake Powell. WOW!
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I have a proposition: keep water in Lake Powell and drain Lake Mead.
The water lost into the sandstone basin will be offset by reduced evaporation (powell is cooler than Mead) and the best warm water fishing lake in the west won't be destroyed.
Sound good?
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Or in other words, Las Vegas needs more water, so instead of facing the fact that Vegas is in the middle of a desert and adjusting accordingly (lose the swimming pools and green grass for starters), lets see where we can steal water from.
My parents live in the NW corner of Arizona, and the politicians of Clark County Nevada, which includes Vegas, are always trying to scam them out of their shares of water.
Vegas is big business, and they'll do anything and say anything to keep that cash flow coming. Even if it means draining Lake Powell. Here's a better idea, shut off the fountains on the Vegas strip [sly] Fred K.
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From the article;
"As for fishing...the massive population of game fish will be concentrated into the low canyons and river. The average size of striper, largemouth, and smallmouth will grow immensely due to an over-abundance of available forage and steady water levels."
Or the fish will have a massive die-off and the populations will readjust to the lower permanent water levels.
I don't see this helping fishing there one bit, but hey give them props for trying to spin it. (roll eyes icon)
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Ought to drain flaming gorge too, it's way to cold up there.
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This just pisses me off. The conversationalists have been after Lake Powell since it was Damed up. There's no good spin on it except they will get to skip through the canyon and plan daises. Look at the loss in revenue in the business that rely on fishermen and recreational boaters. I found this here. http://www2.kenyon.edu/projects/Dams/glp04smi.html
"Draining of Lake Powell would reduce the amount of hydropower generation (possibly by 30%) which would be particularly detrimental because the Glen Canyon Dam is a major generator of the Colorado River Storage Project, comprising 75-85% of total CRSP generation. The substitute for this energy loss would have to come from the burning of fossil fuel which would cause an increase in air pollution."
And we definitely need more pollution.
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I agree, I'd think that that amount of fish tucked in together would destroy the lakes trophic levels and starve most of them of oxygen--AND, I'd also imagine that the river would return to it's original silty state. Although, I did read that the water level will still be pretty high,l over 100 ft--so I'd imagine there still being a smaller reservoir because it'd be at minimum pool, not just free-flowing river. And, they'd utilize the turbines to expel regulated amounts of water. Still tho...damn. I love Lake Powell, crazy to imagine it gone.
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How about they just shut down their golf courses in Vegas, problem solved. Talk about unsustainability.
Sacrifice cities like Page and Bullfrog so people can fill their swimming pools? it is ridiculous! It would destroy the crappie and largemouth fishing with NO spawning grounds.
If I were an investor, I would not invest in houseboats right now on Lake Powell. Just saying.....
The Glen Canyon Institute has been a thorn in those that love Lake Powell for years, and this is propaganda is an obvious attempt to take another spin to force lawmakers to reach their long time goal: drain Lake Powell. When I was in college I used to believe some of that bull crap, then I realized hidden agenda's are help by everyone.
Call your state representative and voice your opinion. Don't let them be swayed by their rhetoric.
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[quote Duckbutter]How about they just shut down their golf courses in Vegas, problem solved. Talk about unsustainability.
Sacrifice cities like Page and Bullfrog so people can fill their swimming pools? it is ridiculous! It would destroy the crappie and largemouth fishing with NO spawning grounds.
The Glen Canyon Institute has been a thorn in those that love Lake Powell for years, and this is propaganda is an obvious attempt to take another spin to force lawmakers to reach their long time goal: drain Lake Powell. When I was in college I used to believe some of that bull crap, then I realized hidden agenda's are help by everyone.
Call your state representative and voice your opinion. Don't let them be swayed by their rhetoric.[/quote]
Ding ding ding....! Tell him what he's won Johnny! Fred K.
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So Las Vegas gets 90% of it's water from Mead--you're right. However, that is 3.2% of the total water that flows OUT of Lake Mead. Water restrictions in the Las Vegas valley prompted the creation of several water treatment facilities that recycle urban run off, and deliver it back into Lake Mead to further contribute to it's own consumption of the lake water. In simpler terms that you can grasp, Las Vegas draws in 3.2% of the Lake Water, and delivers 1.9 percent of that water BACK into the lake.
So where does the 4,000,000 cubic feet of water go after passing the Hoover Dam? To the remaining Lower Basin states, Arizona and California. A relatively small percentage to Arizona, and the remainder (over 60%) to the Imperial Valley of California where it's soaked up by urban sprawl and agriculture that produces food to feed your tum tum so you can grow up to be big and strong! Did you know that every drop of water in both reservoirs, and all future drops of water that haven't even accumulated have been bought by farmers, counties, and states as commodities YEARS in advance? Of course not.
The over-usage of a limited resource is a serious issue, clearly, since we're now facing a real plan to drain beautiful Lake Powell. We can blame the growth of cities and states whose needs and dependence on one another are interconnected, but without addressing our 14+ year drought that's plaguing most of the western states, we're just fooling ourselves. It's better to control your urge to yell about matters you know little about, until you educate yourself and have enough knowledge about the issue to be real hard-hitter when you need to be.
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[quote Duckbutter]
The Glen Canyon Institute has been a thorn in those that love Lake Powell for years, and this is propaganda is an obvious attempt to take another spin to force lawmakers to reach their long time goal: drain Lake Powell. When I was in college I used to believe some of that bull crap, then I realized hidden agenda's are help by everyone.
Call your state representative and voice your opinion. Don't let them be swayed by their rhetoric.[/quote]
This is an important point. This proposal is just that, a proposal. It is a very long ways from being implemented. And I'd imagine that Utah and Arizona would take a dim view on this. To his credit, Governor Sherbert has recently shown some backbone in standing up to Nevada in water related issues. It is good to be aware and yes, probably let our elected officials know what you think, but I don't think we need to get worked up in a froth over this proposal either...........yet.
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[quote ihuntforfish]So Las Vegas gets 90% of it's water from Mead--you're right. However, that is 3.2% of the total water that flows OUT of Lake Mead. Water restrictions in the Las Vegas valley prompted the creation of several water treatment facilities that recycle urban run off, and deliver it back into Lake Mead to further contribute to it's own consumption of the lake water.[/quote]
Okay.. I'll bite. How in the world do they get water out of Lake Mead and then put it back in? Water flows downhill. But it isn't downhill both ways. If they drain water from Lake Mead, then it is already below the level of the lake. How do they get it back to the reservoir? Something ain't right with your scenario. If they are pumping it back and forth, then it would make more sense to store it upstream, i.e. Lake Powell. Drain Mead, and keep Powell.
You can bet your last dollar that the politics of the situation is all in favor of Las Vegas. They couldn't steal the water from Skull Valley, so they'll go looking for other places to steal it. Let the golf courses dry up. Drain the swimming pools. Astro turf baby.
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One point is that it just seems to more we conserve the more new subdivisions are built. You can idle farm land for a few years if there is not water to raise crops. But when they cut back subdivisions we see loss of fire protection, flushing toilets with dish water, among other things good people try to do to cope. The powers that get rich running new constructions in these areas have a fairly potent lobby. They make money building the subdivision then make more screwing people on expensive scarce water delivery and guilt people into believing it is their fault and must pay for it all. That is where we are headed in Utah also. Might be a good time to go to your local county or city planners and ask the hard questions before they issue more building permits than what the water will realistically support.
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Vegas pumps water out of lake Mead and then lets it flow back in by gravity.
I wish someone would put the evaporation/water loss question to rest for good. It has many complicated facets. The easy one is the evaporation rate. I have heard that it is about 18 inches per year for each lake. Anyone know different? The more complicated one is the seepage and surface area/volume ratio of each lake at different depths. To me Lake Powell seems to have it all over Mead in this area. Powell is narrow and deep while Mead's shores are much more gentle, especially at higher levels. As for seepage 400k acre feet seems like a lot but I wonder how that compares to evaporation loss. Plus seepage water can usually be recaptured with wells. Evaporation water is gone forever.
My gut instinct is that if we need to go with the one lake plan Powell is the way to go. I fully agree with the Grand canyon institute that a one lake plan is more efficient from an evaporation standpoint. However the science and economics of which lake seems to favor Powell to me.
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Coming from an engineering and farming background I can see the importance of what they are saying assuming that the numbers are accurate and special agendas haven't cooked the books. If it is true that the soil is less absorbent in Mead and the pond is deeper with less surface area reducing evaporation, then I will agree it may be a proposal worth consideration. However, I think they need several independent studies on these factors before it goes to the decision makers. Maybe the studies have been done and I am just way behind on this issue, but I think having at least two separate studies would be needed to validate the findings.
Emotionally I agree with most that Powell shouldn't be drained, but looking at the on going water issues in the west, I know people and food will end up trumping recreation and that river supports a lot of folks downstream. I don't like the writing on the wall. Thanks for the heads up and keeping us from being totally in the dark. J
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[url "http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2006/5252/section3.html"]http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2006/5252/section3.html[/url] evaporation loss for lake mead +7 feet
[url "http://lakepowell.water-data.com/"]http://lakepowell.water-data.com/[/url] My go to source for current and historical data on Lake Powell
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So there are 3 intake towers in lake mead that pump water to Las Vegas through nearly 10 miles of pipeline through the River Mountains, a range that separates the city from the lake. All urban runoff is accumulated through a network of canals and concrete gullies, which is then treated in the previously mentioned water treatment facilities on the eastern side of Vegas, then fed into the Las Vegas Wetlands, which runs downhill into the Las Vegas Wash (the most northerly portion of the lake). The Vegas Wetlands btw is filled with massive bass and sunfish, but I digress! Anyways, my most valuable point being made is that Las Vegas is not the problem, California is. Just because Las Vegas is flashy and lies right next to the lake doesn't mean that it's the most thirsty locality that receives water from the Colorado River. And the reason why that's such a valuable point, is because if you're going to write your representatives and try to make some change it should be known that California is the biggest recipient of stored river water.
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Thanks they are interesting sites. Haven't done many of those calculations for 25 years but they still seem familiar. Kind of amazing how much water is lost to evaporation. Looks like they need to store a bunch more water upstream in the cool reservoirs like Flamming Gorge so they don't lose as much. I know the Colorado doesn't go through there but just pointing out what the numbers are saying. Later J
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Can you tell any more LIES..
When Lost Vegas does away with all G-courses and the fountains and lawns I may be leave you....(NOT)
You live in Vagas and have all to gain by your LIES so go away..
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