To fly...or not to fly

[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]I just wound down a "philosophical" discussion with a guy who had some pretty well-defined ideas of the differences between fly fishing...and all other kinds of lesser angling. An Orvis dork of the first order.

I was brung up using a fly rod as a kid in Idaho. But that same fly rod was used not only for washing feathers but also for dunking worms and salmon eggs...and for fishing spinners in cricks. Did that change it from a fly rod to something else?

Similarly, I tie flies and fish them a lot on spinning gear. Sometimes I use a bubble. Other times I fish the flies in tandem with a weighted jig. Still other times I fish them as droppers above a sinker...dropshot style...or even with a sinker above the fly for slow trolling or for picking pockets in a stream. The question is whether or not I am "fly fishing" or merely fishing WITH flies.

There are a couple of guys around the country that have me make up small "jig flies"...favorite fly patterns tied on light jig hooks...that can be cast and fished on "regulation" fly fishing tackle. One of these guys fishes these weighted flies on a "fly fishing only" lake that is part of an exclusive club. And he often catches some of the biggest fish of the year on those jig flies. The question is whether or not he is adhering to the fly fishing only regulations or is he cheating?

I have been effectively fishing flies on spinning gear for several decades. I have rebuilt several 9' flyrods into long, limber spin sticks upon which I mount an ultralight spinning reel and fish mono. I often use plastic bubbles and have nicknamed my rods "bubblechuckers". Great for making long casts from shore when the fish are beyond the reach of a flyrod cast. I also use it for working dropshot flies down through the deeper holes on some streams that are almost impossible to reach and fish properly with "standard" fly fishing tackle. But...I have had more than a few "encounters" with mouth-foaming fly fisherpersons who ignored my large size and nasty disposition to try to scream me off their waters. They just can't accept that I am also using flies...just not the same way they are.

I really kinda chuckle when I observe some of the "new" innovations in fly fishing. One is the use of split shots on the line...for weight...and an "indicator" (bobber) above the rigging to help the angler detect a strike. Okay, where is the demarcation line between fly fishing and something else...if you are using the same stuff a spin fisherman is using at the tail end of your same hole?

Actually, there are all kinds of "crossovers" going on between fly fishing and spin fishing. Some fly flingers are spooling their reels with monofilament and then "strip casting" with their weighted fly rigs. Still "fly fishing"? Other anglers put small spinning reels on regulation fly rods and use them for their longer reach...as in "dipsticks" for pulling crappies and other sunfish from around structure.

Oh yeah, there is the new fad of Tenkara rods. Basically just tieing a line on the end of a rod...with no reel. I used to do that as a kid in Idaho only I just cut a willow from the crick bank. But, ya know, I DID fish some of my early hand-tied flies that way and I DID catch fish on them. Little did I know that I would start a fad sixty years later.

Sorry fly folks. No harm intended. I dearly love waving the fairy wand myself. Just don't do it much these days. But I still appreciate the skill and knowledge required to become a good fly fisherman. And I always enjoy watching a fly flinger artist at work...making long effortless casts, with a nice tight loop and dropping the fly perfectly in the rings of a rising fish...etc.

My only beef is with those who "ascend" to the world of fly fishing and can no longer be in the presence of mere mortals...who fish any other way. There is room for all of us and ultimately we are all out there to enjoy our sport in our own way. No need to denigrate others or to demean them for not fishing the way you do.

Anybody else have any poignant observations?
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[RockyRaab]

My observations might be more pregnant than poignant, but here goes:

I did a small article a couple decades ago called "Spin-Flying" that described most of the techniques you related above. Wasn't anything new or earth-shattering even then. But lots of folks never thought of it, apparently.

"Drop-shotting" a nymph or two is called a Provo rig by some, because it's a popular technique on that river. I showed it to my Missouri River guide a year ago, and he sneered at it - in favor of having the splitshot above the nymphs, as he'd always done. Until I'd lost about my fourth pair of $2 each nymphs, that is. Lost a few shot that got neatly pulled off the tag end of the line after that, but no more pricey flies. "Hmmmmm," he said.

A 9' fly rod with an under-rod lever spin cast reel is one of my favorite crappie rigs. Lets me drop a jig right down next to stickups without casting - or tangling. Also works well with a slip bobber for casting under docks.

And I've found that a hare's ear nymph tied as an "upper" above a jig is a bluegill killer.

In short, as a monosyllabic reply to your comments, Pat: Yup.
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[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]I think maybe you and I went to different schools together. I also writ a piece on "Spinning a Fly". See attached.

Also, there is a good chance that I had a part in developing the "Provo rig"...going back to the early 1960s. I brought it with me from California, where I used it to fish for surf perch along the coast. A sinker on the end of the line with one or two flies tied on short droppers above. I fished it on the Provo almost every evening...in the water both above and below the Heber Creeper bridge. Caught a lot of fish on it and showed it to a lot of fellow tanglers...both fly guys and spin dudes.

I have also been making and using long "dipsticks" for a whole lotta years. Down in Arizona I made some fairly heavy ones to handle the big cats that often slurped in my jigs next to the brush and reeds.

Goes to showya. Doesn't matter what you call it or how you fish it. The important thing is to catch fish and have fun doing it.
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[MasterDaad]

To me the discussion of "real fisherman" (usually having to do with avid fly or other technical fishing) is just like the discussions I hear sports fans have about "real fans".

I like fishing and some local sports teams and what I've concluded about the "real fisherman/real fan" discussions is I don't seem to like either type that want to call themselves the "real fisherman" or "real fan".

So if you're the type that wants to call yourself a "real fisherman" by using a sorting method, I'm happy to not be a "real fisherman" in your book.

I just catch lots of fish and have fun doing it.
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[Kent]

I have had fly anglers tell me that so and so must not have been very good at fly fishing, because they used to fly fish and now they are fishing using a different method.

I have a cousin who fishes almost exclusively anchoring up and fishing with PowerBait. He wanted me to show him and his friend how to catch trout vertically jigging. I gladly went fishing with them and rigged them up with tubes tipped with cut bait. They caught a few fish, but it wasn't long before I noticed they were chucking PowerBait on one or both of their rods. I can't imagine how anyone would prefer to catch fish dead-sticking with PowerBait (or trolling) when they can be caught fishing with tubes, so I can imagine how fly anglers look at me and others and can't imagine why anyone would want to catch fish any other way than with a fly rod.
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[doggonefishin]

I do have to admit that I have been doing a bit more "real" flyfishing lately, (I think) and really enjoying myself, but I too have enjoyed some interesting conversations on the general subject.

My favorite is the infamous "Pistol Pete", which I like to throw out and usually kick troll in my tube around small lakes. (using either a flyrod or a sensitive spin rod) I also will break them out on the stream from time to time. On small lakes, there are few things more effective in my hands. However, I've found that to many "real" fly anglers, a Pistol Pete might as well be a glob of power bait, based on the reactions I get. I've had more that a few internet debates on the subject as well. I don't really care, but I think it is funny.

Next is the "fly and bubble" technique. for places like the Uintas, it is an awesome way to fish. There is an art to the right fly and retrieve to make it really work. Again, a technique scoffed at by many, but again who cares?

The funniest was once I admitted on the internet that I "juiced" my fly with smelly jelly at Strawberry. I had my bassin gear with me at the time and the fish were sluggish. Obviously, at the Berry, the move was perfectly legal. Can't say I've done it again, but you should have heard the outcry that I was "cheating".

The bottom line is I don't really care what others think as long as no laws are violated, but I do admit that I'm having a lot of fun doing 'real" flyfishing too.
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[cpierce]

I hope you know that to group everyone together and speak derogatorily of them, whether they have a certain skin color, an accent, a certain type of boat, a brand of clothing, or a preferred way to fish it is all prejudice, plain and simple. That goes both ways. You may think someone is snooty that has a more expensive car or house or whatever, but many times it is the other person imagining a slight or a "look". So what. It doesn't matter either way. Sure you are going to find jerks on both sides of the line, but don't judge everyone the same. And don't post rants about one kind of fisherman or the other.

I don't think I have ever seen any fly fisherman on here post anything derogatory about spin fishing on here. But I have sure seen numerous mentions of the nasty fly flingers and Orvis dorks.

It isn't my job to try and convert any of you to one method or the other. Frankly I don't think it is anyone's business how I fish except where it involves the laws on a given body of water.

I have done my share of bait fishing, spin fishing, and even deep sea fishing. I mostly catch and release now, but I still eat a lot of fish. When I fly fish I usually catch 20+ in a day. If I kept my limit, I would have to stop in the first hour. Or even if I kept a limit every time I went out. I don't eat that many fish! But I still don't care if others take home a limit, and I sure don't care how they caught them.

I enjoy fly fishing more than any other type. For me it fits. Orvis and some other companies make some good equipment and clothing. They are usually made of materials that dry quickly, have a good spf rating, are light, keep you cool, and are neutral colors so that you can stalk wary fish better. They sure beat wearing wet heavy jeans all day! It isn't about the money. It's about function. I am sure that most bass fishermen spend more money on their rods, lures and boats than many "Orvis dorks". Why don't we rant about them for awhile for a change of pace?
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[Fishrmn]

[quote cpierce]If I kept my limit, I would have to stop in the first hour.[/quote]

Why would you have to stop fishing?


Quote from page 20 of the current fishing guidebook:

You may continue to fish while in possession of a full limit, but you must immediately release any additional fish you catch.

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[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]Methinks you take me too seriously. I don't. Sorry if I tweaked a nerve. Still friends, I hope.

I have fun with all groups who get so caught up in their own little worlds that they demote all others to a status somewhere beneath them. But I don't condemn them for it. I believe in passion...for whatever it is you are passionate about. I just don't think your passion should blind you to the humorous side of things...or make you feel like others are picking on you.

I also take my fun shots at bassaholics, walleye huggers, pike pokers and members of the mack pack. I am an equal opportunity kinda guy. I enjoy 'em all but don't get so wrapped up in any of it that I can't allow the others to have their fun...in their own way. And it don't bother me none when others make fun of my tubing or other quirks. I'm a big boy and I can take it.

It has been said of me (by Orvis Dorks) that I probably sucked at fly fishing and that is why I don't do it any more. Au Contraire. For many years my business took me all over the country and I usually traveled with both fly fishing tackle and spinning and/or baitcasting. I have caught almost every species of game fish in north america on both fly and spinning gear...including some near record sizes. In short, I know my way around the mysteries of "real" fly fishing but by preference it is not my primary means of fishing these days.

I started this post kinda in cheek, just to see what kind of opinions others had. I expected to get some "reactions" from serious fly flingers and I am sure there will be more to come. No probby. Just be careful you don't get too carried away and become a good case in point for the case I made...about fly flingers sometimes taking themselves too seriously.
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[windriver]

I really love fly fishing. I really love ice fishing. I really love tube fishing. I really love spin fishing. This love of all things fishing is why my I can't afford any other hobbies. That being said I do have some name brand fly fishing equipment that I love. Much like CPierce stated it is the functionality that I like.

As for Tenkara the more I get into it the more I appreciate the philosophy behind it. You can't lump all Tenkara anglers together either. There are many shades of Tenkara. It is not new, however it does take me back to that simple joy I had as a kid fishing in small creeks.

I learn much from your posts and methods of fishing. I hope you don't consider all fly fisherman snooty. Most of my favorite people consider themselves fly fisherman and I don't see them looking down on other forms of fishing.

Windriver
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[Fowl-Hook]

You make some great Points, Anything can be taken as offensive if you choose to take it that way. The point is was it intended that way, was it directed at you, or was it generalized humor that You chose to be offended by?
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[cpierce]

Yes, I would sure hope that we are still friends. I am not taking myself or fly fishing too seriously. My point is that the jerks are individuals not a whole group.

I don't care to hear derogatory talk about any group, whether I am part of that group or not. I would defend bait fishermen as well. Especially if someone started calling them "worm flingers" or "Dollar Store Dorks"! [shocked][laugh][laugh]

You can define fly fishing how you want for how you fish . What many have tried to point out is that the law will define it on fly fishing only waters. Scent on a fly was mentioned. I too would have a tendency to put a caution out there, that using scent on a fly in waters that are "fly or lure only" would be illegal. Same goes for lures that are impregnated with scent. They are then considered by the law to be bait, and are illegal in fly/lure only waters. For that matter Tenkara isn't considered fly fishing on some waters if the law mentions a fly reel. I would hate to see someone get a ticket for ignorance on the subject. But I still don't care personally if someone wants to do that in a legal area, just so they know the difference in the definition when the difference counts.

I am sure that you had a stimulating discussion with the guy on the differences of each of your definitions of what is fly fishing. So what if he fishes differently and defines it differently. Because he doesn't agree with you is still no reason to call him names, and especially it is no reason to lump everyone that fishes in same manner in with derogatory comments about fly fishers in general.

On reading my posts over. They do look too blunt. That is the problem with text only. I am not upset or struck a nerve. I need more emoticons!
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[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]Peace, love and kumbayah Lady C. I do like and respect you and am sorry if I offended.

Those who don't know me don't understand that I can take it as well as dish it out. And I generally get a lot more than I give. That's cool. As a favorite coach once told me..."If I wasn't ragging on you, then you should be worried about staying on the team." And through the years I have found that being the object of someone else's humor is often a "term of endearment". I am sharp enough to know the difference between good natured ribbing and malicious attacks. I know how to handle both.

Unfortunately, there are just not enough emoticons or colored type fonts to properly convey the exact meanings behind statements made on the Internet. And a lot of folks are always looking for hidden meanings and personal attacks where none exist. So even when I try to convey that my rants are in jest I still ruffle feathers. But that's how I roll.

Sorry.
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[montanaman]

TubeDude, You crack me up! We are similar creatures.

When I iced fished in Utah I put straight mono on an old 3wt reel I had and attached it to my ice rod. My compadres knew I was just messin' with them, but strangers would ask what I was doing...my response was "fly fishing". They just walked away.

The Tenkara rods amuse me as well. It reminded me of fishing in CA in the 60's and going out for Bonita and Albies. When we got into boils we switched to "Jack Poles".

Trolling for DODO's in The Sea of Cortez, I put Marlin lures on my 13 wt, stripped off about 100 feet and waited for the hit. Lot's of fun!

I put Rapalas on my 10 wt for steelhead sometimes. Don't get me started on the Spey people who will only "skate dry's".

Many fly fisherman take themselves so seriously that some friends of mine will not fish unless they can "dry fly fish only". I actually know another guy who will not fish out of a motorized boat...raft or drift boat only.

And the list goes on!

I primarily fly fish now that I live in MT but have ocean gear, bass gear and so on. A person can never have too much gear.

Anyway, thanks for the memory trip!
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[Johnr]

Tenkara rod? I have not seen one but it sounds like a fancy name for a cane pole, is this right?
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[TubeDude]

"I learn much from your posts and methods of fishing. I hope you don't consider all fly fisherman snooty. Most of my favorite people consider themselves fly fisherman and I don't see them looking down on other forms of fishing."

[#0000FF]Nay, I do not consider all fly fishermen as snooty. I regularly fish or hobnob with other anglers who prefer fly fishing and who are nice people...even if they are a bit misguided (joke - joke).

I have had innumerable pleasant interactions with dedicated fly fishermen on still waters and streams throughout the country. If I had to make one generalized observation it would be that for the most part they are better educated, better overall anglers and more knowledgeable of the environment than the "average" angler. It requires not only an investment of "net spendable" to become properly outfitted for fly fishing, but it also requires much study and practice to hone the skills necessary to become proficient at it. Many casual "tanglers" simply do not have the focus or discipline to hang with it. A few sloppy casts with mismatched fly gear and they bag it...in favor of the more easily operated spinning gear.

BUT...there is no denying that there is a hardcore group of fly fishermen who become rude, arrogant and intolerant of others. Of course, that can be applied to isolated members of any special interest group.

In short, some of my best friends are fly fishermen. But would I want them to marry my sister? NO. I wouldn't wish her on anybody...even a fly fisherman.
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[doggonefishin]

[quote windriver] Most of my favorite people consider themselves fly fisherman and I don't see them looking down on other forms of fishing.
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This is also true and one thing I should have added was that I think some of the "snootiness" or "derision" often described in discussions like this is also in cheek on the part of fly enthusiasts and not to be taken seriously as criticism.
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[cpierce]

Hey, no worries with me personally. I know that it wasn't directed at any of us "fairy wand wavers" here on BFT. I understand the fun of ragging. I guess it is the teacher in me.... ragging frequently turns into bullying. Hard to stamp that teacher thing out! I won't make you stay in for recess, but you might have to do an extra research paper on catfish. Let's get to it!!

I think I have cabin fever. I need to go fishing!!
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[TubeDude]

[quote Johnr]Tenkara rod? I have not seen one but it sounds like a fancy name for a cane pole, is this right?[/quote]

[#0000FF]You should use your search engine and do some lookup before forming a final opinion. As mentioned by another poster, there are different rods and methods of using them. I haven't personally tried it but the simplicity and effectiveness...under some conditions...makes it a sweet system for those who take it up.

That being said, yes, it is just like a cane pole. Only they cost a LOT more.
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[not-a-purist]

This is the very reason for my user name. I got tired of the elitist attitude of fly fishermen. I have been fly fishing for twenty plus years. I love to do it. I guided 90 mile fly fishing float trips in Alaska. I enjoy the tranquility that fly fishing CAN, but not always have. It however is NOT always the most intelligent form of fishing.

Bottom line is, fly fishing can have MANY different forms. Its all relative. The funny thing about guiding in Alaska was is that it taught me that more often than not, fly fishing is not the most effective way to fish. Some species, maybe, but I saw more and bigger trout caught on conventional tackle than I ever did on a fly, no matter the pattern.

Anyone that is a purist, and I guided a lot of them, are too closed minded.

I guided a guy that refused to fish for trout or salmon sub surface. Period. He thought it was dirty fishing. The river flooded that week. Visibility in the water was about 12". Salmon fishing was unbelievable!!! He caught on 15" rainbow the entire week. That was one hellaciously(?) expensive trout! he was a PURIST in every sense of the word. I vowed I would never be that guy and make the best of any fishing situation no matter the technique.
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