Willard Snagging

[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]Contrary to what you and your brother may believe, I am a friend to DWR and count many of the biologists as personal friends. Even some of the COs. I have fished Utah Lake and the Provo River for many years...going back to the 1960s. In the early days the river was open and it was a snagfest. Wall to wall goobers raping the walleyes. And the walleye population continued to soar.

In later years it seems pointless to keep the tributaries closed...at least as a protection to the resource. A high percentage of the effective spawning takes place around the lake...along rock dikes or shorelines. The DWR biologists agree that closure of the tributaries is more a matter of cutting down on (not eliminating) the wanton snagging of walleyes. There are still individuals and groups that raid the spawning beds after dark...but the law abiding citizens at least respect the closure.

At a meeting in Springville, a couple of the COs had lots of tales of their undercover efforts to catch and punish the violators. Many such tales involved getting back to their vehicles to find slashed tires or other vandalism...even in unmarked cars and going in plain clothes. The violators are skilled at what they do. And closures mean nothing to them.

Utah Lake is full of walleyes. It does not get nearly the pressure from knowledgeable walleye fans as does Willard. And the walleyes get much bigger on average in Willard because of the broad food base that is available 12 months of the year...unlike gizzard shad.

In short, my LAY PERSON evaluation that Willard walleyes are fewer in numbers and subject to much greater harvest...yet they are less protected than the large population in Utah Lake where they do just fine. The only thing that seems to affect the numbers or sizes of the walleyes in Utah Lake is the cyclic changes in water levels. That affects the whole ecology of the lake...walleyes included.

If DWR is anxious to provide quality walleye fishing to the license buying public...as goes their reasoning for Willard...why not reopen the tributaries on Utah Lake? Lots more fish, in natural settings, with clearer water...and bigger fish too. And I know from personal experience that a lot of those fish WILL take a lure...legally...even if being more visible increases the effectiveness of snagging.
[/#0000FF]
[signature]

[Therapist]

thought I would just add a couple of comments on this thread. Two things:

Not to be crass, but how many here stop in the middle of making love to your partner to have a snack before finishing !! All creatures are the same, when reproduction is the goal, it trumps ( no pun ) every thing else until it is over. The fish caught during the spawn are picking up the lure to move it out of the way, they are not feeding !!! ( also the reason most of the fish caught in the mouth are males) For that reason alone, fishing for them during the spawn is not that good. Snagging becomes viable because the concentration of fish is so great. Still, the number of fish that congregate in the inlet is very small.

Second point: You are a cattle rancher. You sit out in your field and when the bull mounts the heifer, you shoot them both, then wonder why you don't have any calves in the spring to renew your herd !! Nuff said !!

We may not be able to change the hearts and minds of some so called sportsman, but we can be ethical ourselves and not engage in unethical behavior !!

[wormandbobber]

You may be correct; I do know that walleyes also stack up around bird island to spawn and would assume that they have some success there among other places. I do suggest, though, that the difference between Willard and Utah Lake is that the walleye are successful in spawning in those tributaries to Utah Lake whereas they are not successful in the inlet to Willard.

Also, the seasonal closures at Willard are evidence to the contrary to what someone was saying about the DWR only managing trout and protecting trout from snagging during spawning times. That was my main argument. The idea that if trout were stacking up and at risk of being snagged then the DWR would do something about it and that because it is walleye they won't....
[signature]

[wormandbobber]

[quote Therapist]
We may not be able to change the hearts and minds of some so called sportsman, but we can be ethical ourselves and not engage in unethical behavior !![/quote]

You are oversimplifying this a bit, aren't you? I mean...ethics are personal and every person's ethics are different from another's. If what you are suggesting is that we should not target fish during the spawn, then we should be ethically avoiding a lot of other types of fishing as well. Including fly fishing for salmon in the rivers up North....or Steelhead.

I admit...fishing for spawning trout has lost a lot of its appeal to me over the years and i don't target bass during the spawn. But, I don't see how it is unethical to fish for spawning fish and catching them when doing so doesn't affect the resource.
[signature]

[Gemcityslayer]

[quote Therapist]


Second point: You are a cattle rancher. You sit out in your field and when the bull mounts the heifer, you shoot them both, then wonder why you don't have any calves in the spring to renew your herd !! Nuff said !!

![/quote]

Since you replied to me I assume you were responding to my comments.

I think you kind of missed the point about what I said: If you shoot that same cow 2-3 months before they would be ready to breed, you are preventing them from having offspring just like you would be if you shot them while the bull "mounts the heifer".

It happens all the time some people on here and elsewhere complain when they see others keeping fish full of eggs... They should realize that if you kept that same female in July it is the same thing as keeping it a week before she dumps her eggs in terms of preventing the next spawn of that fish.

Since the Willard inlet spawning walleyes do not contribute much if anything to the reproduction in Willard... It is kind of unwarranted to even discuss the Willard snagging issue and spawning ramifications in the same thread. I apologize for doing so. The real issue here as many have pointed out is the ethics of the matter. It is unethical at best and blatantly illegal at worst to snag them while they are stacked up in the inlet.
[signature]

[PBH]

Further -- if natural reproduction isn't supported by the system those fish spawn in, then it really doesn't matter!


If that heifer is sterile, then it doesn't make a difference when you kill her, she isn't making calves. She might still go through the process of trying, but it's all for fun!
[signature]

[Gemcityslayer]

[quote PBH]Further -- if natural reproduction isn't supported by the system those fish spawn in, then it really doesn't matter!


If that heifer is sterile, then it doesn't make a difference when you kill her, she isn't making calves. She might still go through the process of trying, but it's all for fun![/quote]

Exactly. This willard snagging issue is really about the ethics and lawfulness of snagging fish. Lets try not to get it too mixed up with population ramifications because it really is negligible in this case.

And lets remember that walleye snagging during the spawn is a problem across the country, not just in tributaries and inlets, etc but also on rock faces too. They are just vulnerable that time of year because they are confined in shallow water in large numbers. The reason I think it bugs so many people that snagging takes place in the inlet is that it is extra confined and arguably much easier to snag them there than elsewhere on the lake. And you can make the case that it would be impossible for the officials to patrol the dyke rock faces. Too much ground to cover.... but when a good % of the snagging, if not a majority of it, takes place in one very known spot - more should be done to prevent it.

This really boils down to people breaking the law and then enforcing the law. The "fuss" about this so to speak will fluctuate up and down in my opinion based on how much of a presence the UDWR decides to make at the inlet this time of year. If there is zero enforcement and zero presence at the inlet people are going to be upset, and rightfully so. The officials know darn well what has traditionally occurred there and they should also know darn well if they don't do anything at all about the illegal activities, people are going to be upset.
[signature]

[gmwahl]

We'll I for one would fully support reopening the tribs to Utah Lake. The real issue here isn't if catching walleyes during the spawn is ethical or not.....any time of year that you catch them you are preventing them from spawning. The real issue is the peckerwoods that intentionally snag them. That is what really bugs me. I've caught many over the last 35 years that I snagged by accident, but I've never done it intentionally. Those fish that are snagged are just thrown back with the hopes that they will bite on the next outing.

I can't imagine that in our society now days that we would fish the walleyes down to nothing in Utah lake just because we are allowed to fish the streams during the spawn. The limits are smaller, mentality has changed as far as keeping many fish, and there are more people than there used to be watching others anyway. There will always be those that fish illegally and keep a disgusting amount of fish illegally just to fill the freezer or sell, but I really haven't witnessed too much of that in all my trips into the great outdoors. I've witnessed some to be sure, but I think we lose FAR more fish to the everyday fish poacher that isn't fishing with a license, keeping more than their limit, catching their kids limit, etc.....than we lose to blatant snaggers. Those ilk will always exist regardless of the closures on certain bodies of water or tributaries, but it shouldn't have to stop the rest of us from enjoying all that the water and various species have to offer if the biologists think it can support it.

Just my opinion though because I've always wanted to fish the tributaries to Utah lake during the walleye spawn and have never had that opportunity.

Mike
[signature]

[dubob]

[quote Therapist]We may not be able to change the hearts and minds of some so called sportsman, but we can be ethical ourselves and not engage in unethical behavior !![/quote][font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]So, let me get this correct. You're saying that anybody that disagrees with your definition of ethics isn't really a true sportsman? Interesting! [crazy][/#800000][/font]
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]Hey Mike, we are on the same wavelength here. I also fully agree with allowing year-round LEGAL pursuit of all species on all waters...where there is no problem with fish health and population...through natural spawning and recruitment...or supplemental stocking. My main concern through all of this "discussion" is the wanton destruction of a resource through illegal means.

I cannot throw rocks at anglers taking advantage of a species schooling up during a spawn period. I have enjoyed plenty of good fishing days for many species during their spawn. But the difference is that most of those species are also known for actively biting lures during that time...whereas walleyes are less likely to deliberately feed. True, a lot of smaller males get all jacked up and will smack lures. But most of the larger females are "dorsal diners". Not all.

Like yourself I have enjoyed lots of nights casting from the rocks around Willard...and catching plenty of walleye...legally...even a few large females. And also like yourself I have not done well fishing in the scour hole at the inlet...with 1000 of my new closest friends. Spent more time with snags and tangles than casting, retrieving and/or fighting fish. Not my ideal kind of fishing. I fish for enjoyment...not endurance. And I enjoy solitude while fishing. That ain't it.

I totally agree there are plenty of fish to go around. But it comes back to the natural angler jealousy we all have. We would rather have the chance to catch a fish legally ourselves than watch someone else kill that fish illegally. It just rankles the soul.

Y'know, I see the comments about "the good ol' days" on Willard. I was around then too...from the late 1970's. Don't know if the numbers of walleye were any greater then, but I caught plenty...up to 30 or more in a night...during the early summer post spawn period. Had some nights during the spawn when I might catch 5 or 6...but rarely. Usually quit when I had a couple and couldn't stand the wind and snow any more.

And the walleyes were definitely bigger average. The limit was 6, but only 2 could be over 20 inches. Trouble was that after the spawn the average fish was over 24 inches...so a limit was 2. Most trips saw me releasing at least a dozen fish and keeping only two...none under 20 inches.

There was another factor back then that is different today...besides there being wipers and shad in the lake. That was that there were just not very many walleye chasers...who had boats and knew how to troll for walleye. Most walleye caught from Willard were taken by bank tanglers during the spawn. There were a lot of days (and nights) when walleyes were on the chew and my float tube was about the only craft on the lake.

Today we have a whole lotta knowledgeable anglers who have learned the ways of the wiley walleye and are able to put good numbers in the boat on most trips. That has to factor in there somewhere.

I was brung up in Idaho, in a large family of eithical sportsmen. They drummed into me at an early age that I needed to obey the laws of hunting and fishing and should encourage others to do so too. I have always bought my license and fished legally. I have released a bunch of fish that were snagged that many folks would have kept. And I have challenged more than a few folks on the water that were visibly violating regulations. Because I am a big boy I usually get away with it. But I am getting older and I can't outrun a bullet. So I am bit more discreet. Discretion is the better part of cowardice.

I think a lot of us pretty much think the same but don't always express our feelings the same online. And anything not clearly understood is misunderstood. Story of the human race.
[/#0000FF]
[signature]

[Gemcityslayer]

Some good thoughts there TD.

I used to drift worm harnesses for eyes with dad during the day or troll if it wasn't windy and we thought that was basically the only and best way to target eyes... since then I have become a swimbait junky. We had heard people fished for them at night but I didn't know how or where to start... I took to the internet to read about how people targeted them at night and then went out and tried stuff until I got a feel for it (it is really as simple as just casting out and reeling in, although you can make it more complicated if you'd like) It really does seem like more people actively target walleyes these days and without a doubt they are more successful with modern sonar, etc

And things have changed in other ways since the internet like you say... people get shot for the dumbest stuff these days. There was a time, I'm too young to have experienced, when people would get into a fight and they wouldn't pull a knife or a gun... just man vs. man. The winner won and the loser lost, fair and square. Now there are guns everywhere and people are quick to use them or threaten with them.

You are too valuable a resource for this community, we don't want you getting shot for yelling at some goober - so the discretion is both wise and appreciated.
[signature]

[Fin-S-Fish]

+100000000 That's why some people are normal decent human beings and others are fanatical fish hugging zealots. These are lynch mob mentality folks who don't respond to scientific empirical data. They have an OPINION and therefore it is undeniable FACT in their minds. Some people are unwilling to be educated and I discovered they can never be educated since they are not open to it. In all subjects and issues there are closed minded folks. Thanks for posting up comments of reason to keep this a balanced dialogue vs a mere rhetoric of lynch mob hatred.
Why would we want the DNR to create legislation that fulfills extremists? I never cease to be amazed how hateful and vicious elititist anglers get! Personally, I think willard is horrific place to "enjoy" the outdoors with this many of these type of folks around. I'd rather have the DNR rotenone the entire lake and replace with planter rainbows. Then these zealots won't have any more walleyes to protect. I'd rather never have any eyes to ever catch again than these extremists get their way.
[signature]