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All the information I'm finding shows relatively equal growth rates between the two species when raised in the same waters. Largemouth definitely don't grow as quickly as trout, especially in the frigid waters of southeast Idaho. What I was trying to convey is that habitat and forage seem to be larger factors in growth than harvest. These two reservoirs are in roughly the same geographic area, but one has better forage and cover for fry.
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Sense you and your bro likes to miss lead and put anything that has to do with anything but trout lets put out the real truth..
First back in the 80's until 85 both stripers and shad was doing great or so the DWR was saying so, but many fisherman was saying they need to take the limit off the striper..
Then the crash all in one winter..
Then very hard times for all the fish in Powell..Then the Feds. by way of a dam in NM we got other shad (that lots of fisherman had been saying would help Powell out) ..
But if you remember the DWR was saying the shad would hurt the lake and eat all the plankton and the little bass and other minnows would starve..
So far the lake is doing great and the striper at Powell are doing great, a boater at Powell found a striper on the surface had another striper in its mouth but after pulling out the fish the bigger striper was let go and swim away..OH yes looking at the picture the big fish looked to be around 30lb..
When you have striper at any given time you can have skinny fish most may just be sick..I fished Powell many times in winter and find the striper in great shape with a skinny one in some spots..
I think we was talking about SM bass in Jordanelle??
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Growth rates are not the same, each needs the right cover and spawn at different temps and for the most parts live in different parts of the lakes most of the year..
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Oh, yes...we were talking about the stunted population of smallmouth bass in Jordanelle. And, you said that stunting doesn't occur in big waters. But, then the example of lake powell was brought up and how both stripers and smallmouth have stunted in powell. And then, you said that the stripers do not stunt in Powell and I said that they do and cited Wayne's words as proof. And, now you want to talk about the stunted smallmouth in Jordanelle again...and now, I am sweating and dizzy because around and around we go!
But, back to the topic...like Wayne said about stripers and smallmouth in Powell, if we remove smallmouth in Jordanelle, fish will grow quicker and be more healthy and we can eliminate the stunting problem the smallmouth are experiencing at Jordanelle. The trick is to convince people that removing smallmouth bass is a good thing and then actually getting fishermen to harvest them.
Now, I am sure you will say that they aren't stunted and the argument will continue on and I will get a little dizzier....
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[quote bassrods]
Smallies are slower growing then large..Large mouth will grow about as fast as trout 4 to 6" per year, SM about 2 to 4" per year.. [/quote]
Perfect! Back on track.
We'll use your numbers, whether they are correct or not.
SMB: 2 - 4" per year.
At Jordanelle, let's assume they are currently growing at 2" per year. Wouldn't it be better if they were growing 4" per year??
At 2" per year, a 4 year old fish would be 8". Sexual maturity is reached at 8"! They then spawn at 8"!
Compare that to the 4" per year growth. A 4 year old fish would be16" at sexual maturity!!
That's HUGE difference! And EXACTLY what we are talking about. Using YOUR numbers.
So, again, why wouldn't you want to get those fish in the fast growth rate (4" per year) zone vs. the slow (2" per year) zone???
A=B=C=D:
Reduce the overall population = more forage for the fish that are left = faster growth rates = bigger fish.
We can then assume: A=D
Reduce the overall population = bigger fish.
It's a simple formula Cliff.
[quote bassrods]
In lakes that have all sizes [#ff0000]with a good number of 19" and over SM bass[/#ff0000] [#008000]they seem to grow faster[/#008000] (or that is what other states say) and do not spawn till they are a bigger size.. [/quote]
Of course!! Exactly! Bingo! You got it!
Why? Because those fish are experiencing FAST growth rates! All of the fish, including the small fish, are growing FAST!
Why? Because population numbers are in check. They are NOT in check at Jordanelle (or Powell, for that matter!)
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BFT needs a "popcorn munching" emoticon for threads like this.
Then again, it is a rerun. [:/]
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Will this do?
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Perfect![cool]
Now we wait for Cliffs next incoherent rant.
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I think that's something we all can agree on. [laugh]
They say ignorance is bliss, in this case it is also entertaining.
I think it's funny that Cliff likes to use Wayne's Words as proof that stunting doesn't exist, any harvest on bass is overharvest, et cetera, et cetera. But he likely failed to read my last post on this thread where I quoted an entry, from the same site, that stated that harvesting lots of smallmouth improved the fishery.
(munching popcorn)
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So increase the harvest of all sizes of SM. and improve the spawning habitat for the perch and it's a home run. What the worst that could happen?
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[quote BassDuder]So increase the harvest of all sizes of SM. and improve the spawning habitat for the perch and it's a home run. What the worst that could happen?[/quote]
If you improve the perch spawning habitat, then you gain nothing by removing smb. The spawning perch would simply occupy the space opened up by removing the smb.
Aren't perch spawning right now? They aren't being stocked, so obviously they aren't having any trouble reproducing and keeping their population numbers high. What good would improving their habitat do? We'd be better off wrecking their habitat and limiting their spawning recruitment to "partial" success rates.
Adding more perch won't help. You have to remove fish, not add more.
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[quote PBH][quote BassDuder]So increase the harvest of all sizes of SM. and improve the spawning habitat for the perch and it's a home run. What the worst that could happen?[/quote]
If you improve the perch spawning habitat, then you gain nothing by removing smb. The spawning perch would simply occupy the space opened up by removing the smb.
Aren't perch spawning right now? They aren't being stocked, so obviously they aren't having any trouble reproducing and keeping their population numbers high. What good would improving their habitat do? We'd be better off wrecking their habitat and limiting their spawning recruitment to "partial" success rates.
Adding more perch won't help. You have to remove fish, not add more.[/quote]
[#0000FF]That does it. Now I am absolutely convinced that you know nothing about Jordanelle...or its current ecology. You need to stop reading the old reports from your brother's observations...from ancient times.
1. There are no chubs, shiners, or other minnows in Jordanelle...and virtually zero crawdads.
2. Since the chubs disappeared, perch have been the ONLY source of forage for smallmouth and larger trout.
3. The perch population crashed several years ago and there are VERY FEW perch in the system. And the young are consumed by the smallmouth as fast as they can reproduce. THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH PERCH IN THE SYSTEM TO FEED THE PREDATORS...AND THE PREDATORS HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO EAT.
4. You advocate restricting the spawning habitat and recruitment of perch. That would be like filtering out all the zooplankton from a kokanee lake. Or having a mass dieoff of shad in Powell. Or any other ecological system you may understand better than Jordanelle.
I used to think Cliff had the exclusive on dense.
[/#0000FF]
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[quote TubeDude]
[#0000ff]That does it. Now I am absolutely convinced that you know nothing about Jordanelle...
3. The perch population crashed several years ago and there are VERY FEW perch in the system. And the young are consumed by the smallmouth as fast as they can reproduce. THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH PERCH IN THE SYSTEM TO FEED THE PREDATORS...AND THE PREDATORS HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO EAT.
[/#0000ff][/quote]
No Pat, that is where you fail to see the light.
If there are any perch, that is enough. You must reduce the SMB population, not bolster the perch. The issue isn't that there aren't enough perch, but rather too many smb. Reduce the smb, and the perch will provide the forage for the smb.
You cannot fix this issue by adding more fish to the mix.
The kokanee may help, but they occupy such different niches than either smb or perch, that they will simply create a new niche.
If you want a healthy smb population, you need to control their population size. If left un-checked, you'll end up with a stunting issue. You know that. You cannot control smb by adding perch, unless the goal is to replace stunted smb with stunted perch.
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[#0000FF]I give up. You are starting to sound more like Cliff.
When your mind is made up there is no need to further confuse you with facts...or actual on the water observations, experience and input from hordes of other local anglers...and DWR biologists too.
I'm done here.
Hope the mods are as fed up as the rest of us.
[/#0000FF]
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Why fed up?
Why so serious?
What's wrong with discussing these things back and forth? This thread has provided me with two days of entertainment. It's been fun. I actually got an email explaining to me the definition of insanity, and that I must be insane.
I love these threads. It drives me crazy when mods decide to shut them down. No rules have been broken. It's been civil. let's keep it going.
We should at kokanee to the mix at Jordanelle. [:p]
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Gill nets from Jordanelle last year in the fall...please tell me what type of fish these are....
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[quote TubeDude]
1. There are no chubs, shiners, or other minnows in Jordanelle...and virtually zero crawdads.
2. Since the chubs disappeared, perch have been the ONLY source of forage for smallmouth and larger trout.
3. The perch population crashed several years ago and there are VERY FEW perch in the system. And the young are consumed by the smallmouth as fast as they can reproduce. THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH PERCH IN THE SYSTEM TO FEED THE PREDATORS...AND THE PREDATORS HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO EAT.
4. You advocate restricting the spawning habitat and recruitment of perch. That would be like filtering out all the zooplankton from a kokanee lake. Or having a mass dieoff of shad in Powell. Or any other ecological system you may understand better than Jordanelle.
[/b][/#0000FF][/quote]
Oh, come one, Pat....surely you understand more than this...
1) Chubs, shiners, and other minnows all exist in the system (the provo river and inlets to the reservoir). If you eliminate or reduce the number of their top predators, those fish will show up in numbers again. Example after example of this same phenomena has occurred in Utah reservoirs time and again. Restricting the spawning of both perch and smallmouth would allow the chubs and other minnows a chance to return because those fish do exist upstream. A great example of this is Newcastle reservoir where right now golden shiners are virtually nonexistent; however, if wipers were totally removed or reduced (which is happening now) shiners will start showing up again from upstream sources. It is also what happens with threadfin at Powell.
2) To say that the only food for smallmouth and large trout are perch is naive at best. Trout very rarely, if ever, focus on one food source (lake trout may be the only real exception). Even those large brown trout will be utilizing available plankton and aquatic insects as forage at times. The same thing can be said about smallmouth....to say that they only eat perch fry is naive at best. You can't tell me that they don't feed on terrestrial insects and bugs as well as other aquatic insects. Also, if you allow other forage species a chance to thrive by controlling predator populations, you create a much more healthy system.
3) Like PBH has said over and over, adding more predators will not make more food available. You can't keep adding more and more fish to a full bucket and expect the size of all those fish to be bigger and bigger. To get the size of the fish in the bucket bigger, you have to remove some of the fish and allow the remainder room to grow. If you eliminate fish from that bucket, all the fish remaining will have more food. It doesn't really matter how many perch are or are not in the reservoir. The problem is that there are too many predators in the reservoir.
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I think the biggest problem you will have in getting people to keep SMB is they don't taste very good, work on there flavor and then we can gripe about there's not enough of them, but they should be big ones.[:p]
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They taste AWESOME, that's the first I've heard of them tasting bad. Beer battered and deep fried, or rolled in egg and then bread crumbs, they're fantastic. Maybe you've been catching them somewhere other than my places (Pineview and Deer Creek)?
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I'm enjoying this discussion and learning from it. I may not agree with everything on both sides, if there are sides, but I have watched Jordanelle from the beginning and I will continue to fish Jordanelle. Good, bad and ugly. If I need to keep some smallies then so be it. I think they are pretty good but I've only had them deep fried at Powell. You can deep fry a shoe lace and I'll probably like it.
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