Smallmouth in Utah

[utahgolf]

How's the yuba fishing plan going pbh? haven't seen much pike action reports?
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[Therapist]

Boy, leave you guys alone for a week and you go nuts !! Had to take time off to check out Powell, fantastic.

So, after reading all the new posts on the subject, it seems that Perch are bad news for SMB, that they cannot do well to gether ( check out Western basin of Lake Erie, considered the BEST SMB fishery in the country). So if perch are not compatible, what forage species do we use ??? We are very limited as to what we can use, due to climate, Endangered species issues, disease, etc. Some smart person somewhere needs to come up with the answer to that. I have over the years made several suggestions, all of which have been ignored. I suggested Gizzard shad for Utah Lake back in 1972 or 3 in a term paper. A copy was sent to SLC, nothing. In the early 80's our BASS Club, High Country Bass Masters suggested trapping chubs at Strawberry and moving them the Ut. Lake. we even built a trap that was able to be slipped into the tanks on the barge up there. Charlie Thompson, the Central region biologist tried it out, it worked, but the hoist on the barge could not lift the trap when it was full, to heavy. I don't believe that SLC was open to the suggestion either !! Not Jordanelle, but Charlie tried Japanese Pond Smelt, Spottailed Shiners, Fathead minnows, and several other species in Utah Lake, none thrived in the main lake. Fatheads can still be found in some of the tributaries, but not is great numbers. So, who is the smart person that can come up with a solution here !!

2 ) I remember several years back when Newcastle and Enterprise were being overrun with crayfish. They were impacting the growth of the trout that were being planted and it was a major topic of discussion for several years at the fall fisheries mtg. Eventually SMB were introduced and nothing more was heard till the Golden Shiners showed up and took over the lake. Now Wipers are the answer. Tiger Musky in Pineview were stocked to control the crappie and perch, and we are using sterile walleye in other waters. So is the answer to the problem to stock sterile species and go to a put and take fishery ??? VERY expensive !!

3) I have been doing my part on both Deer Creek and Jordanelle over the past 6-8 years. I keep a limit of 8-10 inch SMB when I fish them. Would a more liberal limit on the smaller SMB be helpful ??

4) Final question, what can I, as a Utah angler, do to help improve the situation on Jordanelle ( and Deer Creek ) ??

[PBH]

[quote Therapist]
So, after reading all the new posts on the subject, it seems that Perch are bad news for SMB, that they cannot do well to gether ( check out Western basin of Lake Erie, considered the BEST SMB fishery in the country). [/quote]

Erie also has walleye. In every case where perch and smb thrive together, you also have walleye in the mix. Not so at Jordanelle.


[quote Therapist]So is the answer to the problem to stock sterile species and go to a put and take fishery ??? VERY expensive !!

[/quote]

Expensive? Not when you consider the alternative (rotenone). Consider Newcastle and Minersville. Without the introduction of sterile wipers, both reservoirs would have needed a rotenone treatment. That would have cost far more $$$ than implementing a wiper population.

DWR just put out a little release on wipers -- interesting info: http://wildlife.utah.gov/blog/2016/whats...he-wipers/

"...4 years after adding wipers to Minersville, Utah chubs had almost disappeared, negating the need for another rotenone treatment.".

"Chemical treatments are expensive and remove all fish from a waterbody, decreasing fishing opportunities for multiple years in some cases."
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[TubeDude]

"Erie also has walleye. In every case where perch and smb thrive together, you also have walleye in the mix. Not so at Jordanelle."

[#0000FF]So then, what is your evaluation of Deer Creek. Perch and walleye coexisted for decades in that lake. Plenty of perch and plenty of healthy walleyes. But once the smallmouths were dumped in they ate baby perch before they got big enough for the walleyes and both perch and walleyes took a dive. Today there are almost no perch at all, far fewer walleyes and large browns. Trout still do well on zooplankton but the smallies are overpopulated and stunted...just like Jordanelle.

In this case the smallies totally wrecked an ecology that had been doing well for many years before they came along.
[/#0000FF]
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[Kent]

Seems like wipers would be a viable solution to turn Scofield around.
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[doggonefishin]

I see we are still going.[] Hope everybody had a good holiday.


[quote Therapist]
4) Final question, what can I, as a Utah angler, do to help improve the situation on Jordanelle ( and Deer Creek ) ??[/quote]


I suppose this differs on one's opinion, but here is how I see it.

1. Keep keeping the small bass as you said you were doing. I've done the same thing. If enough do, it will help.

2. Tell the DWR in their survey to raise the limit for small bass under 12 inches from 6 to 10 or 12.

3. Pray for rain. Jordanelle just hit 75% full as I type this. If we have a near full pool and repeat it a couple years in a row, flooding all of the 5 years of weedy lake bed growth ,we will have great fishing there, even (especially) with the so called evil perch.
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[PBH]

[quote TubeDude]
[#0000ff]So then, what is your evaluation of Deer Creek.

In this case the smallies totally wrecked an ecology that had been doing well for many years before they came along.
[/#0000ff][/quote]

I didn't say that perch+walleye+smb = good population dynamics for every water.

I also didn't say that smb didn't have the potential to screw up good fisheries.

Were smb intentionally stocked in Deer Creek, or was this an illegal introduction?

In any system, you must have something that controls population sizes. Mother Nature provides an opportunity, and species may exploit that opportunity. If you don't have that variable accounted for, you will have problems. This is exactly why non-native species are problematic in their non-native environments. No natural systems are in place to keep populations from exploding.


Knowing next-to-nothing about Deer Creek, my first recommendation would be to look at the regulations and increase the limit. Combine this with education to help promote the need to harvest more bass.


just my opinion.
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[doggonefishin]

[quote TubeDude]"Erie also has walleye. In every case where perch and smb thrive together, you also have walleye in the mix. Not so at Jordanelle."

[#0000FF]So then, what is your evaluation of Deer Creek. Perch and walleye coexisted for decades in that lake. Plenty of perch and plenty of healthy walleyes. But once the smallmouths were dumped in they ate baby perch before they got big enough for the walleyes and both perch and walleyes took a dive. Today there are almost no perch at all, far fewer walleyes and large browns. Trout still do well on zooplankton but the smallies are overpopulated and stunted...just like Jordanelle.

In this case the smallies totally wrecked an ecology that had been doing well for many years before they came along.
[/#0000FF][/quote]


Careful, that uncomfortable finding goes against their theory/rant and thus must not be "factual". [] (and Deer Creek has been much, much worse for smallies than Jordanelle for a very long time.)


A couple of final housekeeping items.

Here is a native range map for yellow perch.

http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet...ciesID=820

and Smallmouth bass.

http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet...ciesID=396

They are almost identical!

It is not consistent with evolutionary theory for two species to co-evolve and be incompatible. Incompatibility typically occurs when two species that have not co-evolved are put in a situation together, such as smallmouth bass and Utah chubs.


Finally, a quote from the posted range sheet on smallies. (under "impact of introduction")

Smallmouth Bass were introduced into Flaming Gorge Reservoir to reduce the Utah Chub Gila atraria (Teuscher and Luecke 1996)


And it worked! [cool]
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[TubeDude]

"Were smb intentionally stocked in Deer Creek, or was this an illegal introduction?"

[#0000FF]Sometime around the mid '80s a group of Utah bass clubbers were recruited by DWR to conduct a smallie catchathon on Flaming Gorge. The catchees were transported to Deer Creek...legally and with DWR aid and blessing. In those days smallies were still darlings in the Gorge and there was no way to anticipate the hostile takeover in Deer Creek.[/#0000FF]
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[PBH]

[quote doggonefishin]

Careful, that uncomfortable finding goes against their theory/rant and thus must not be "factual". [] (and Deer Creek has been much, much worse for smallies than Jordanelle for a very long time.)


A couple of final housekeeping items.

Here is a native range map for yellow perch.

[url "http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=820"]http://nas.er.usgs.gov/...t.aspx?SpeciesID=820[/url]

and Smallmouth bass.

[url "http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=396"]http://nas.er.usgs.gov/...t.aspx?SpeciesID=396[/url]

They are almost identical!

[/quote]

You left out the other map:

http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet...ciesID=831

as with the first two, again, this one is nearly identical. And, again, it is something missing from Jordanelle.

nobody has yet named a lake with smb and perch as the two main predator species where both species thrives. The only places you can find also include walleye, or another predator like pike, musky, etc.



Deer Creek -- so, why have the standard state-wide limit for smb at Deer Creek if it is full of stunted smallies??
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[Therapist]

I was part of that group that caught the SMB at the Gorge. I don't recall anything that warned of a possible explosion that would result in the type of problem that we have now. They actually went to Wahweep to be spawned out, then the fry were transported to Deer Creek and Starvation. This is also the time that Wayne found some fry left over in the ponds at Wahweep and dumped them into Powell. I believe that there was a previous stocking of adult fish from the Gorge into both Deer Creek and Starvation.

PBH is correct in his statement that Deer Creek is in worse shape SMB wise as Jordanelle. The SMB have been stunting there for years. Even the introduction of Crappie, Black Bullheads, and White Bass has not provided much in the way of relief for the Perch and SMB. All those introductions were by Bucket Bio's !!

So, again after all this discussion, what can we do to bring these two waters back into balance other than praying for lots and lots of rain !! Water, Structure, and Forage. Is Rockport at risk for this same cycling ? It has SMB and Perch, plus stocked bows and native browns. What is the forcast for it ???
( just had to get something started again, it's my nature !!)

I also find that PBH's statement that introducing sterile species is cheaper than treatment. I would agree that treating a water is a terrible waste and should only be done in extreme situations. IF the technology is there to create sterile species that can be used effectively, then all the better !!!

[doggonefishin]

Hardly forgotten.

But if eyes were in Jordanelle, then we would have an exact biological replica of Deer Creek and as previously mentioned, the smallies there have been so dismally stunted for so long, it is not something I ever want to see at Jordanelle.


RE"Deer Creek -- so, why have the standard state-wide limit for smb at Deer Creek if it is full of stunted smallies??
"


Agreed, and furthermore, why is the DWR so reluctant to move from their 6 fish limit? Are they still on the "rules simplicity" kick they were on a few years ago?
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[retch_sweeney]

[left]As I read through this thread all I could think of is...[/left]
[left]
[/left]
[size 2]I know an old lady who swallowed a fly
I don't know why she swallowed the fly
Perhaps she'll die[/size]
[size 2]I know an old lady who swallowed a spider
That wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly
But I don't know why she swallowed the fly
Perhaps she'll die[/size]
[size 2]I know an old lady who swallowed a bird
How absurd to swallow a bird
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider
That wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly
But I don't know why she swallowed the fly
Perhaps she'll die[/size]
[size 2]I know an old lady who swallowed a cat
Imagine that. She swallowed a cat.
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider
That wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly
But I don't know why she swallowed that fly
Perhaps she'll die[/size]
[size 2]I know an old lady who swallowed a dog
What a hog to swallow a dog!
She swallowed the dog to catch the cat
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider
That wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly
But I don't know why she swallowed that fly
Perhaps she'll die[/size]
[size 2]I know an old lady who swallowed a goat
Opened her throat and down went the goat!
She swallowed the goat to catch the dog
She swallowed the dog to catch the cat
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider
That wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly
But I don't know why she swallowed that fly
Perhaps she'll die[/size]
[size 2]I know an old lady who swallowed a cow
I don't know how she swallowed the cow
She swallowed the cow to catch the goat
She swallowed the goat to catch the dog
She swallowed the dog to catch the cat
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider
That wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly
But I don't know why she swallowed that fly
Perhaps she'll die[/size]
[size 2]I know an old lady who swallowed a horse
She's dead of course![/size]


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[Kent]

Yep, that about sums it up.
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[dtayboyz]

CJ Strike
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[Kent]

Not sure if CJ Strike qualifies or not because it also has mudcats, channel cats, flat head cats (?), squaw fish, crappies, and I believe a few large mouth bass. It also has the advantage of a constant water level.
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[dtayboyz]

His challenge was name one. Lol

Y'all are arguing about man made lakes and non native species.
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[Therapist]

CJ Strike is more of a flowage than a reservoir. I believe that the Snake River environment is totally different than Deer Creek, Jordanelle, Rockport, etc. We have nothing even close here in Utah, maybe the Sevier River. The Snake has pretty constant water levels in spite of heavy use by water users.

In regards to possible fixes, I like the idea of an increased limit on SMB up to say 12inches. They tried a slot limit for a time, all fish between 12 and 16 inches had to be released. The bass guys did not like it as it cut out tournaments on those waters, even though the fish were released back at the end of the day. Something needs to be worked out, someway, somehow !!

ON water levels, supposedly, Deer Creek is supposed to be stabilized by the flow out of Jordanelle, but that has not been the case so far. Is there any thoughts on getting back to that plan with sufficient water in the system?

[PBH]

maybe the solution, like CJ Strike, would be sturgeon? I wonder how they'd do in Jordanelle.


Deer Creek and water: how much does it fluctuate? is it enough to inhibit smallmouth bass reproduction? I would guess that if the reservoir is inundated with small smallmouth, we'd want to do something to prevent additional recruitment -- something like drop the water level immediately after the spawn to leave the nests high and dry. Wouldn't a constant water level compound the problem of recruitment?
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[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]The lake is managed as a water source...drinking and irrigation...not as a smallmouth fishery. DWR has very little say in how water levels are controlled.

Every year is different...water level wise. Some years it fills and spills early. Other years it never fills at all. Welcome to our desert state.
[/#0000FF]
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