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[cool][font "Poor Richard"][green][size 3]Yesterday I float tubed a new lake for me. Haven't read that there were any particular problems with foreign invaders like the NZ Mud Snail. However, it didn't change my normal routine of washing every thing down with a mild detergent. Tube, waders, booties, flippers etc. While it took me over an hour at least I know that know that my equipment is nice and clean for my next outing & that hopefully I won't be infecting another body of water. [angelic] Oh BTW I use a lot of Fantastic spray. It kills a lot of insects like right now. Try using it on ants, spiders and the like and you will be surprised as to it's effectiveness.[/size][/green][/font]
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Windex is also killer (no pun intended) on a lot of crawling wee beasties.. especially ants.. kills them in their tracks...
MacFly
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It is good that you are cleaning your waders. and boots. That is so much better than doing nothing.
No one will know that a particular body of water has an invasive species in it until long after the species is well established in that body of water. So taking precautions to prevent possible transport of an unknown invasive is the best way an individual can help to prevent its spread.
I applaud your participation.
However it probably is not killing any new zealand mudsnails. Fatastic and Windex are not know to kill new zealand mudsnails. There are a number of substances tested and shown not to realiably kill the snails even though they are known to kill other organizisms. Chlorine is one of those that does not reliably kill them. There are only a few products that have been proven to effectively kill them and most of those contain a Quantinary ammonium compound (QAC) known to be a biocide, germicide, herbicide or pesticide.
One particular formulation of Formula 409 (there are over 20 formula 409 products) which has been proven to kill new zealand mudsnails. It contains a QAC. There are number of different QACs, all with obscure long names.
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All I have is my waders and my boots and my net. I take the time.
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This is gonna sound like a really silly question but this cleaning that is done to prevent the spread of invasive creatures as this mudsnail.. does that include cleaning the rod and reel .. reason I am asking is that I dont tube or toon yet.. so I am shore fishing.. I do get my shoes dirty or sandy but that is about the extent of major contact with the water except for the fishing line.. sooooooo do I need to get into a specific cleaning routine and if so what should I be doing????
MacFly
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[center][font "Poor Richard"][green][size 3] Here some additional FYI[/size][/green][/font][/center] [center][/center]
![[Image: gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=25236;]](http://www.bigfishtackle.com/cgi-bin/gforum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=25236;)
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[center][font "Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size 2][/url]****[#ff0000] [size 3]ALERT[/size][/#ff0000] ****[/size][/font][/center]
[font "Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][#ff0000][size 2]UNDILUTED[/size][/#ff0000][/font][font "Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size 2] Formula 409 Antibaterial / Disinfectant product required.
[/size][/font] [left][font "Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size 2]A 50/50 solution of Formula 409™® Disinfectant and water used to be recommended. The California Department of Fish and Game testing evaluated snails 48 hours after exposure to 50/50 solution. A more recent test by the Colorado Department of Wildlife also evaluated the snails 56 days after exposure to a 50% solution and discovered that some snails which had appeared to be dead at 48 hrs later were alive and functioning normally after 56 days. The Colorado DOW testing reveiled that undiluted Commercial Solutions Formula 409 Cleaner Degreaser Disinfectant was effective for killing all of the snails. The DOW report is currently in the review cycle for release. Thus it is not available yet for your perusal.[/size][/font][/left] [center][font "Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size 2]The only Formula 409® Product tested for effectiveness and be safe for boots and waders is
"Commercial Solutions Formula 409® Cleaner Degreaser Disinfectant"
It can be found in some stores. Not grocery store, though.
The only other Formula 409 product with the same QAC disinfectant in it is:
"Formula 409® All Purpose Cleaner Antibacterial Kitchen Lemon Fresh"
available in many locations but probably in small containers
Most Formula 409 products do not have a disinfectant / antibacterial in it. The disinfectant or antibacterial is what will kill the snails.[/size][/font][/center]
[font "Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size 2][url "http://www.westdenvertu.org/NZMS/formula409pic.htm"]Where to Buy it - What it looks like[/url]
** More effective and efficient methods are listed below **
[/size][/font] [left][font "Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size 2]Other types of Formula 409, as well as other cleaning fluids with surfactants and detergents, are helpful in that it would force the snail to loosen it's hold on the surface it it hanging on so that the cleaning processes below can wash them off. But it would do little to kill any. Thus it is, by far, best if you use the formulations listed above for loosening the snails hold plus killing them. Other cleaning fluids formulations may damage wading equipment.[/size][/font][/left]
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[size 1]MacFly wrote[/size]
[size 1]This is gonna sound like a really silly question but this cleaning that is done to prevent the spread of invasive creatures as this mudsnail.. does that include cleaning the rod and reel .. reason I am asking is that I dont tube or toon yet.. so I am shore fishing.. I do get my shoes dirty or sandy but that is about the extent of major contact with the water except for the fishing line.. sooooooo do I need to get into a specific cleaning routine and if so what should I be doing???? [/size]
[size 1]---------- [/size]
[#000080][size 1]Juvenile of New Zealand Mudsnails, Quagua Mussels and Zebra mussels are know to float in the water. The adults of them and Whirling disease spores are known to heavily populate river and lake bottoms. Didymo is a minute diatom known to float in the water as individual diatoms. Blankets of them are known to coat the river and lake bottoms as well as float in the water. So I guess it is possible for them to attach to a fly line. From a risk assessment point of view the likely hood of the fly line becoming contaminated is significantly lower. Would you clean your fly line after each use?[/size]
[size 1][/size]
[size 1]Now if you set your rod and reel down in the water the risk goes up quite a bit.[/size]
[/#000080]
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DR,
In one of your previous post above it is recommended to useChlorox and Grapefruit seed extract. It is old information and has since been proven by the California DFG to be ineffective against New Zealand Mudsnails. Chlorox is still effective for Whirling Disease.
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DR posted:
[#ff0000]UNDILUTED[/#ff0000][font "Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size 2] Formula 409 Antibaterial / Disinfectant product required.
[/size][/font] [left][font "Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size 2]A 50/50 solution of Formula 409™® Disinfectant and water used to be recommended. The California Department of Fish and Game testing evaluated snails 48 hours after exposure to 50/50 solution. A more recent test by the Colorado Department of Wildlife also evaluated the snails 56 days after exposure to a 50% solution and discovered that some snails which had appeared to be dead at 48 hrs later were alive and functioning normally after 56 days. The Colorado DOW testing reveiled that undiluted Commercial Solutions Formula 409 Cleaner Degreaser Disinfectant was effective for killing all of the snails. The DOW report is currently in the review cycle for release. Thus it is not available yet for your perusal.[/size][/font][/left] [left] [/left] [left]------------ [/left] [left]The referred to report has not been published and may never get published for public access.[/left]
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[reply]
This is gonna sound like a really silly question but this cleaning that is done to prevent the spread of invasive creatures as this mudsnail.. does that include cleaning the rod and reel .. reason I am asking is that I dont tube or toon yet.. so I am shore fishing.. I do get my shoes dirty or sandy but that is about the extent of major contact with the water except for the fishing line.. sooooooo do I need to get into a specific cleaning routine and if so what should I be doing????
MacFly [/reply]
[font "Poor Richard"][green][size 3]Hi there mf55 - the lake that I mentioned had a lot of floating green algae while at the shore line was brown. It stuck to every part of my tube, flippers etc. My line had a fine film as well as my rod. Naturally I cleaned them too. Yes I would clean my shoes and equipment even if I didn't get them wet.[/size][/green][/font]
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I am honestly not trying to be dense here.. but all that I read said boats.. float tubes.. waders.. boots.. etc.. stuff that is in the water or more specifically the muddy bottom of the water..
I know that my line does drag the bottome at times but as I bring it back in I do slide it thru my fingers so debris etc is removed.. my shoes. .... unless I fall in the water.. may have limited contact with the waters edge..like I may take one or two steps into the very shallow water...
againg.. this is all on two local lakes that as far as I know are not infested.. and I sure as heck dont want to be the one to goof and they end up infested in some way... so... with all that in mind..
should I be cleaning my rod and line and my shoes more thoroughly??? and also my net.. if I do need to.. what exactly should I be doing with the 409 or whatever cleaner is available to me...
btw.. I did talk to a local fly shop a while back.. to his knowledge none of the local fresh waters were infested (immediate San Diego area)....
MacFly
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DR,
So pull out my line.. and run it across a damp clothe of the 409... wipe down the rod with the same.. and rinse off my shoes followed by a good wiping with the 409... will that cover all my bases???
MacFly
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[font "Poor Richard"][green][size 3]Hey there Scruffy_Fly looks like you text under my quote didn't take. [/size][/green][/font][font "Poor Richard"][green][size 3]They are still working on that situation. Apparently it is not caused by one of your settings otherwise why would it work one time and not another. One Admin thought that it had to do with one's cookie settings which I didn't buy. Bear with us and eventually the problem as others will be resolved.[/size][/green][/font]
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[font "Poor Richard"][green][size 3]Sorry to say mf55 that just any old 409 is not good enough. But it can't hurt. I remember that we [not necessarily you] had this discussion a while back. Having a concern about the effect of various solvents on my pricey Simms. I contacted subject company about this subject. They did send me a letter which when I find it I will post.[/size][/green][/font]
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[center][font "Poor Richard"][green][size 3] From an earlier post on the NZ Mud Snail:[/size][/green][/font][/center]
[cool][font "Poor Richard"][green][size 3] Just got finished talking to the folks at Simms about treating one's waders to remove any parasites. It should be noted that a mixture of 1 part bleach and 9 parts water is okay to use on Gortex products but they couldn't speak for waders made of other products. They have heard that 409 also works well. When in doubt use hot water. The following was copied from Simm's web site with their approval:[/size][/green][/font][size 1] [/size][font "Times New Roman"][size 3] New [b]Zealand Mud Snails
![[Image: 100-NZ-Mud-SnailI.jpg]](http://www.simmsfishing.com/app_images/100-NZ-Mud-SnailI.jpg)
New Zealand Mud Snails Potamopyrgus antipodarum are threatening Western fisheries. These tiny, 1/8” snails reproduce rapidly, survive in harsh conditions and have an impact on aquatic insects and trout. The spread may be caused in part by snails “hitchhiking” on anglers.
Take the following precautions to make sure that you do not spread New Zealand mud snails:
Rinse mud and debris from waders and gear after use.
Use a hot water bath (120 degrees) for several minutes.
Let equipment dry several days between uses.
Dry heat will kill them. [/b][/size][/font]
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I may of mislead you on my use of words.. I meant the antibacterial/antifungal lemon scented 409 mentioned earlier... my main concersn are...
1. to make sure I am not contributing to a bad thing here... so I am willing to do what is needed on my part to help prevent a problem.. but...
2. what affect will this stronger 409 have on in particular my rod and my fly line and then the net.. not too worried about the shoes for now except to clean them..
3. After treating the rod and line in particular.. do I need to
"treat" them again with something to protect them...such as using glide on my line after cleaning it with the correct 409... and what would I treat my rod with to ensure it is not damaged by the correct 409??/
AGain...I am the newbie here..so want to make sure I am doing things right and protectiing my investment in my gear....
MacFly
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[font "Poor Richard"][green][size 3]Well one thing for sure is that I am not going to use an industrial strength cleaner nor fantastic on my fly rod, reel or line. A mild detergent is what I use to clean these items. Hopefully I can detect any foreign agent hanging around. Float tube, waders etc have so many nooks and crannys that a 18" trout could be klinging some where and I wouldn't be able to see it. If I ever see a NZ Mud Snail I will just blow some of my cigar smoke at it and it should die very shortly. So says the anti smokers. LOL[/size][/green][/font]
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MacFly55 wrote:
[size 1]my shoes. .... unless I fall in the water.. may have limited contact with the waters edge..like I may take one or two steps into the very shallow water... [/size]
SF replies:
[#0000ff]How deep does the water need to be for an animal the size of a ground pepper flake or a diatom that you have to have a microscope to see..... Like just a film of water.[/#0000ff]
MacFly55 wrote:
[size 1]btw.. I did talk to a local fly shop a while back.. to his knowledge none of the local fresh waters were infested (immediate San Diego area).... [/size]
[size 1][/size]
[#0000bf][size 1]In my way of thinking that is bad thinking. It would take thousands if not millions of the invasive to be present before they would be recognized as being present. In the mean time we could have move them to many other places. The diatoms and a mudsnails only require one to start a new colony somewhere else. Getting the word spread wide enough to generally be known would take months to years to accomplish. How many things we hear, see, or read take multiple times before it sinks into our tough old brain cells?[/size][/#0000bf]
[size 1][/size]
MacFly55 wrote:
[size 1]if I do need to.. what exactly should I be doing with the 409 or whatever cleaner is available to me... [/size]
[size 1][/size]
[size 1][#000080] "Commercial Solutions Formula 409 Cleaner Degreaser Disinfectant " can be used multiple times. though the number of mulitiple times is not understood and is quite variable depending the amount of organic matter in the solution.[/#000080] [/size]
[size 1][/size]
[#0000bf][size 1]There is some information about disposing of pesticides, biocides, and germicides on the packaging.[/size][/#0000bf]
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DR wrote:
[font "Poor Richard"][#008000]Hopefully I can detect any foreign agent hanging around. [/#008000][/font]
[font "Poor Richard"][#008000]----------- [/#008000][/font]
[font "Poor Richard"][#008000][/#008000][/font]
[font "Poor Richard"][#000080]Testing by the California DFG demonstrated that visual inspection for New Zealand Mudsnails on waders boot and wading staffs is completely inadequate.[/#000080][/font]
[font "Poor Richard"][#000080][/#000080][/font]
[font "Poor Richard"][#000080]When those 1/8th inch long snails die the expell their young. They can contain 120 young ones in that tiny body.[/#000080][/font]
[font "Poor Richard"][#000080][/#000080][/font]
[font "Poor Richard"][#000080]Those huge Didymo mats coating a river bottom you see pictures of consist of little micorsocpic individual diatoms. How are we to see that?[/#000080][/font]
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