Can you identify the minnow?

[FishingLunatic]

I was fishing the jordan river and saw a dying(not dead yet) minnow being pulled by the current near the shore where I was. It was underwater(about 1 foot deep) and it was clear and I could tell it wasn't something I usually catch so I grabbed it and took a picture of it to see if you guys could identify it. The quality of pictures on my phone is really poor but hey, it's worth a shot to see if someone can identify it.
[signature]

[riverdog]

Blurry minnow[].
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]Baby Utah sucker. Lots of them in the Jordan. Good bait. Just don't use them in Utah Lake.
[/#0000FF]
[signature]

[riverdog]

I must just need new glasses. You sure it's not Catostomus obscuris or the blurry minnow.
[signature]

[FishingLunatic]

Are you sure TD? It could be just cause its a minnow but it didn't look like a Utah sucker to me. If it was a Utah sucker, It was small enough where I couldn't see the sucker part. It's eyes also looked disproportionately huge compared to the rest of its body.
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]Hey, I'm married. I know better than to state anything with absolute certainty...with no back door to run out of. And although I pride myself on knowing a good many of the flora and fauna by their binomial nomenclature I cain't say for a certainty that it is or it ain't persackly what I guessed.

How's that fer waffling? Think I could run for some kinda political position...or weather forecaster. Most of those guys guess a lot too...and are almost always "unright".


[/#0000FF]
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[quote FishingLunatic]Are you sure TD? It could be just cause its a minnow but it didn't look like a Utah sucker to me. If it was a Utah sucker, It was small enough where I couldn't see the sucker part. It's eyes also looked disproportionately huge compared to the rest of its body.[/quote]

[#0000FF]Much easier to identify an adult sucker...or most fish of most species when they are mature. But almost all species undergo many changes between egg and adult. The mouths on suckers do not become larger and more pronounced until they are several inches longer and feed on bottom dwelling invertebrates, algae, etc. The youngsters hunt down zooplankton and other tiny tidbits and don't need the puckered lips.

A good example of how fish change over the course of their lives is the halibut...and other members of the "flatfish" family. For some time after hatching they look like any other small fish, swimming upright and with an eye on each side of their heads. But then one eye begins to migrate up over the top of the skull and winds up on the same side as the other eye. And the bottom side becomes white and the top side becomes darker to camouflage them when they rest on the bottom.

And look at small trout...with their parr markings. A lot different than the adults.

In my younger years I caught and sold minnows to tackle shops in Idaho...when live bait was legal. I had several species of minnows in some of my traps and had to know how to separate them. The suckers up there were "white suckers"...that could be anywhere from light blue to grey to almost black on top with a white belly. But the babies (minnows) were mottled brown with lots of spots and speckles. Totally different than the adults.

My guess was based upon shape and placement of the fins and the position of the mouth...even without a set of sucker lips. Over many years of experience at fishy ID I can usually make a fairly quick and accurate assessment with a brief glance. However, when forced to make one from a blurry minnow picture it takes a bit longer...especially if my eyes are already blurry from age or some form of liquid "visionade".
[/#0000FF]
[signature]

[FishingLunatic]

That's interesting TD. I've actually seen a lot of small Utah suckers as in 3-5 inch ones and I could easily tell they were them because of the sucker mouth. I really should invest some money into a cheap but decent camera just so we'd know for sure. Maybe they look like that and by 3-5 inches like the ones I've seen, there sucker part becomes more pronounced. I would have used it for bait if it was a little earlier in the year. I haven't caught any catfish in a while. Right now the feeding habits of the fish have been very weird(I think it's because of the moon cycle). Early morning is useless for fishing. The bite picks up starting around 9 a.m and when it's pitch black.

I haven't been able to hook many or even stay out late but when it gets dark starting around 7, my usual spot I go to go nuts. I don't understand how he fish could possibly see anything to jump and eat. I haven't been able to figure out what they want to eat either. Part of the problem is its a river and even though its moving pretty slow, it still moves a little so I don't think a bobber would stay where i want it long enough.

On a side note, I wondered if you knew a few other things. 1. When are they going to close the gates on Utah lake? 2. Can utah suckers interbreed with carp? I've caught some goofy looking fish this year; some are carp that have the body of a sucker and some are a sucker but have the body of a carp. Maybe they're just goofy looking but I wondered if it was possible that they could be interbreeding. 3. Are carp hard to catch on Utah lake? I don't know you'd want to but lets say you specifically were trying to target carp when you go out...would you have a good day guaranteed or would it be more realistic to only expect you to get a couple? Based on my catch percentages, I'd have guess it was utah suckers that were 90% of the fish in the river/lake.
[signature]

[Flyfishinglover]

You can get a 16 or 20 megapixels for only 90-170 for point and shot with zoom and a few other futures.
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]Re the feeding cycle all I can say is that it changes from week to week and day to day depending on several factors. Food supply and availability are a couple. Fish feed when the food is available. But they are also influenced by water clarity and water temperature. This time of year the water warms up a few degrees after the morning low and even two or three degrees warmer can make a difference to some fish. That's when they bite better later in the day and into the night. And most fish have lateral lines that allow them to feed in low light or at night...or in murky water.

They close the gates at the pumphouse usually around the first of October.

While carp and suckers are both members of the large family of minnows, they are not closely related enough that they would hybridize naturally. Also, different spawning times and methods...in most waters. But it is possible that biologists could possibly cross them under the right conditions. But who would want to...and why?

You would think it should be easy to catch carp. They are super abundant in both the lake and the Jordan River. And I have caught quite a few in both but usually while fishing for other species. They generally eat worms and are caught by folks fishing for white bass or catfish...using worms. And they are also caught deliberately by a growing number of folks who pursue them with flies. That is usually a sight fishing thing...seeing your target and presenting the fly in front of them. But not always.

Plain old flour and water doughballs will catch carp. So will various cheese baits. Some folks make up their own fruit-flavored dough concoctions. There are lots of recipes online if you look for them. Corn is a great carp bait but is not legal in Utah...even on the great trout waters like Utah Lake and Willard. Dumb. I have tried unsuccessfully several times to convince DWR to legalize the use of corn on non-trout waters. But that makes them roll their eyes and mumble things about "opening up a can of worms". Talk about confusing.

The key is to find where the carp feed. It's easy to see them when they are slurping the surface or cruising near the top. But in murky water (Utah Lake?) you usually can't tell if carp are present or how deep...or if they are feeding. In the river just look for quiet spots out of the main current. In the lake you will do better fishing the shallow flats, where they look for invertebrates and vegetation upon which they feed.

My favorite method of gathering carp...either to help out the Junies or to stock up on cat bait...is to "force feed" them with an arrow. But I catch enough on my jigs...both in the mouth and "dorsal diners"...that I have no problem keeping a supply.

If you are serious about pursuing carp...for your own reasons...spend some time on the internet reading up on carp fishing. They are ugly and nasty but they are definitely fun to play with. But they are not pushovers. They can be as tough to catch as a wily brown trout. They have surprisingly good vision and can be very spooky. And they often take a bait very delicately for their size.
[/#0000FF]
[signature]